OneCity Plan

[44 North]

Biggest change is the realignment of the DRL to use a Parliament-Don Valley alignment instead of Riverdale-Pape. Much shorter alignment, much less expensive, and a far greater amount of development opportunities along Parliament than in Riverdale.
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That's a pretty big gap without stations between Thorncliffe Park and Castle Frank. Would you have it running underground along the valley, or at/above grade? Regardless, those are some big elevation changes involved with it rising from the valley then under Parliament. The valley is greater than 100ft deep.

 

[gweed123]

That's a pretty big gap without stations between Thorncliffe Park and Castle Frank. Would you have it running underground along the valley, or at/above grade? Regardless, those are some big elevation changes involved with it rising from the valley then under Parliament. The valley is greater than 100ft deep.

Realistically, the gap between Bloor-Danforth and Thorncliffe Park would only have 1 station on it using the Pape alignment, so it isn't really that big of a difference.

And it would run at-grade, next to the Richmond Hill line. If it's flat enough for that rail line, it's flat enough for two subway tracks. Also much cheaper than tunnelling all that extra length under Pape just for one station. That money can be used to push the line further west.

As for getting into the valley, it would be a pretty deep tunnel at Castle Frank to begin with, so it would come out of the side of the valley just east of the Bloor exit road, and then be elevated over Bayview, coming gradually down to grade beside the rail track.

There's also the potential of putting in an interchange station at Bayview in the valley to connect to the Richmond Hill GO line, as well as some bus routes. Or at Pottery Road. Not critical, but could add some extra connectivity.

 

[W. K. Lis]

While the province approves LRT for Toronto, it won’t back OneCity plan. See this link.

Queen’s Park has thrown cold water on TTC chair Karen Stintz’s OneCity transit plan, saying it won’t discuss converting the Scarborough Rapid Transit line to a subway or re-imagining the provincially owned air-rail train shuttle into public transit.

“There is a strong consensus across the entire Greater Toronto Area that too much time has been wasted. We need shovels in the ground now,†said Ontario Transportation and Infrastructure Minister Bob Chiarelli.

“The province has been patient. What we need now is action and implementation,†he told reporters at Queen’s Park Friday.

The remarks came with the announcement that the Liberal cabinet has approved the construction of four light rail lines that were endorsed by city council after a heated LRT-versus-subway debate in the spring.

While he praised the leadership of Stintz and TTC vice-chair Glenn De Baeremaeker in broaching the topic of a property tax to pay for the city’s $10 billion share of the 30-year, $30 billion plan, Chiarelli said he can’t wait for another council debate.

“This is not acceptable. It will only result in protracted debate and more delays. We cannot allow this conversation to deter us from the immediate public transit implementation needs,†he said.

“We have a project approved and funded and we’re already working on it,†said Chiarelli.

He also rejected the idea of a regulatory change to assessment laws that would allow the city to capture increased property tax values. The city already has the power to raise property and other taxes, said Chiarelli.

The province says it has already spent $40 million of the estimated $1.8 million cost of the SRT.

The biggest change to that $8.4 billion LRT plan, however, is a one-year delay in the opening of the Sheppard East LRT to 2021, probably the most hotly contested of the four provincially funded projects.

That decision is based on an overheated construction market during the period leading up to the PanAm Games in 2015 and the condensed timelines on the four transit projects, as well as hospital and other construction in the region, said Chiarelli, who was flanked by Metrolinx chair Robert Prichard and CEO Bruce McCuaig.

Mayor Rob Ford waged a war at council, insisting that nothing short of a subway would do on that route. He was, however, out-voted in favour of the less expensive light rail, which councilors agreed left more money to spread transit further in the city.

Chiarelli’s remarks suggested that the province would have appreciated more advance warning before Stintz and De Baeremaeker released their OneCity plan on Wednesday.

Although he said Stintz had discussed the SRT conversion in some preliminary discussions, “We’re in good company with the mayor in learning about it,†he said of the substance of the plan, considered among the boldest to emerge in the city in years.

It includes 21 lines, including six subway and heavy rail expansions.

While I agree, we need to go ahead with the immediate plans, we also need to plan AND actually work on transit plans for the next 20 and 30 years. It is not enough to do actual work every generation, we need to be building new or extending public transit each and every year.

In 30 years, it might be time that places outside the 416 may have to work on public transit in their neck of the woods in Barrie, Milton, etc.. But for now, Toronto has to advance the need of public transit to everyone, not just the luckily few.

 

[CanadianNational]

Well, I guess a bit of regrouping and rethinking might be in order.

-This doesn't rule out the idea of raising property taxes to pay for new transit - though it may mean a general hike, instead of a specially dedicated 'CV Uplift' tax. This, more than the plan we were shown, is the real issue at stake. The city has the power to raise taxes without going to the province, and it looks like the province is pretty clear about not wanting to be involved in the tax issue.
-Metrolinx is positive about the plan, which is a good sign.
-Since the plan is preliminary at best, there's no reason to think that the Scarborough Extension can't be redrawn and find another form. Though, whether it will or not with an LRT to STC is debatable.
-Chiarelli is concerned about already approved plans that are under construction or about to be. He's speaking as if the new OneCity plan will interfere with their deadlines. I can see his point about the Scarborough Subway / SRT part, though less so about the Airport Link, since electrification is not to happen until after the Games. If the new plans are coming after the existing ones are already implemented,, the province could change their tone. It's not as if they all have to be done at once, either. I mean, this is a thirty-year plan.

So, I expect we'll see Stintz and DeBaeremaker re-adjust things, rather than abandon the whole thing outright. It's going to be an interesting summer.

 

[spider]

Well, I guess a bit of regrouping and rethinking might be in order.

No, a lot of re @ re is in order. This Parrot has expired, holster your crayons and move on.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Nope, the plan is always about debating revenue sources for transit expansion at the city level - and that's exactly wha'ts happening. Pretty much all of us knew the province and especially the Feds won't commit to anything.

AoD

 

[M II A II R II K]

The transit agencies making their own money and being less dependent on politicians and politics is the better way to go, for the better way.

 

[spider]

No, the best and only realistic route to transit improvement lies in the City indentifying the need and raising the money to satisfy that need. The City should be restrained by the fact that they must raise the money through the municipal tax rate or raising fares, the Province and Ottawa have bigger problems than trolleys in Toronto. Dismissing the hope of a finance fairy sprinkling gold on Toronto is the first step to reality, as cold a step as it is it must be accepted.

The design and construction of the infrastructure should not be trusted to an agency as incompetent as the TTC, it is bad enough that we seem doomed to letting them operate it.

 

[nfitz]

The design and construction of the infrastructure should not be trusted to an agency as incompetent as the TTC, it is bad enough that we seem doomed to letting them operate it.

That seems like an unfair comment to me. TTC has consistently delivered big projects on time and on budget. Downsview, Sheppard Line. Spadina extension, assuming they can work through the delay caused my the multi-month shutdown at York because of the fatality.

Compare to Metrolinx, which managed to turn the 4-year time-frame for building Sheppard East that TTC control in 2009 had ... to 9 more years based on today's announcement of another 3-year delay from 2018 to 2021.

 

[Electrify]

Since it is the only real departure from the current plans, how far ahead is the Scarborough LRT from Transit City? I understand why the province doesn't want to go back to the drawing board, as we have spent too much time there already, but this is a very good alternative and very affordable too. If the plans are all drawn up and studies completed for the conversion, with the only thing keeping us from getting shovels in the ground is for the Pan AM games to finish (and maybe money), then I have to support the province on this one. However, if the only work done on the RT conversion is the line on the map, now would be the perfect time to move ahead with this new concept.

 

[Dan416]

Since it is the only real departure from the current plans, how far ahead is the Scarborough LRT from Transit City? I understand why the province doesn't want to go back to the drawing board, as we have spent too much time there already, but this is a very good alternative and very affordable too. If the plans are all drawn up and studies completed for the conversion, with the only thing keeping us from getting shovels in the ground is for the Pan AM games to finish (and maybe money), then I have to support the province on this one. However, if the only work done on the RT conversion is the line on the map, now would be the perfect time to move ahead with this new concept.

Hell I would be willing to take a little extra time and run the SRT into the ground just to avoid the lengthy (4 year) shutdown required to convert it to LRT.

 

[BurlOak]

I recall a few months ago (March?), Council (led by Stintz) voted to study the extension of the B-D subway to STC and to extend Sheppard to Dufferin. Has any type of report been issued on this? Are these aspects of OneCity based on detailed study by experts, or just the feelings of a few politicians.

 

[44 North]

And it would run at-grade, next to the Richmond Hill line. If it's flat enough for that rail line, it's flat enough for two subway tracks. Also much cheaper than tunnelling all that extra length under Pape just for one station. That money can be used to push the line further west.

How would it deal with crossing Pottery Rd? It would definitely need a grade separation there. I doubt having a RR crossing arm come down into traffic every 2mins (or less) would be feasible.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

So this is dead right?

 

[gweed123]

How would it deal with crossing Pottery Rd? It would definitely need a grade separation there. I doubt having a RR crossing arm come down into traffic every 2mins (or less) would be feasible.

Well presumably any increase in frequency on the Richmond Hill line would necessitate a grade separation as well. I do find it quite funny though that a single grade separation can be cause for so much concern, but a 2+km tunnel is perfectly acceptable without any questioning at all.

Yes, the Don Valley alignment would require some grade separations and yes it would require some unique engineering to get it into the valley, but all of that pales in comparison to the cost of tunnelling from Danforth to O'Connor, and then either building a new bridge over the Don Valley or significantly modifying the existing one.

To me those two engineering challenges seem to be on completely different levels (both in terms of complexity and in terms of cost).

Not that I'm singling you out specifically (I do it too from time to time), but I find that alternative ideas are generally judged by a completely different standard than the incumbent ideas. Nuances in the alternative are judged far more closely than nuances in the incumbent. An overpass is given consideration, but has anyone really given any consideration as to how a Pape-aligned DRL is actually going to CROSS the Don Valley? That in itself is going to be a huge engineering task.

The Millwood bridge, to the best of my knowledge, was not designed with a lower subway deck in mind (unlike the Prince Edward Viaduct). Even if it was, the end locations of the bridge may not be suitable for a good DRL alignment (the turn into Thorncliffe Park would be very sharp). This engineering feat alone would likely be more expensive then whatever structure would be required to bring the line into the valley after exiting Castle Frank. Nevermind the 3+km of extra tunnel required compared to a Parliament-Don Valley alignment.