OneCity Plan

[gweed123]

From the Globe:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ont-back-onecity-transit-plan/article4380105/

No surprises there - they won't want to be seen as committing to the plan given the dollar figures. That said, I would be a bit surprised if they didn't jump at the SRT subway replacement - it will take a lot of heat off the Liberal MPPs back. It's good politics - and good planning.

AoD

*Facepalm*

"We've had too much delay...(It) is unacceptable," he said. "It's time to get on with the job."

3 of the 4 projects won't see any delays at all!!!

My God, I can't believe I voted for this guy (and yes, I live in Ottawa-West Nepean, so I actually did vote for him)!

 

[gweed123]

Maybe it's best to have a main GTA transit system and dissolve the local transit systems and call it TransToronto or something.

Union Station doesn't have to be that stressed if there are additional hubs like a DRL having a Gerrard Square transfer from GO, and a Leslieville Station at Queen and Richmond Hill line intersection.

A Wellington Station as well as a Parkdale one, and a detour for the Richmond Hill station to Broadview so people can transfer to the BD line as well.

Why not just call it "Metrolinx"? Upload all rapid transit in the GTA to them, and let them handle it.

 

[rbt]

Why not just call it "Metrolinx"? Upload all rapid transit in the GTA to them, and let them handle it.

Not sure I want TTC staff in charge of GO Transit.

No, it wouldn't go the other way around. 10k TTC staff will absolutely swamp anything other agencies might contribute.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Just changing the institutions when the institutional culture remains is the road to not doing *anything* well. Metrolinx have NO experience with running local transit - only GO. What I think should happen is that Metrolinx evolving into an independent (read - no provincial influence, thank you) regional transit planning agency with the authority to levy taxes and user fees regionally - and perhaps as an extension of a GTA/GGH regional governance body. That would make far more of a difference than uploading local lines to it.

AoD

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

Chiarelli is right. Using subway technology would delay the SRT replacement. There's no way they could make the necessary legislative changes and then design and build the Bloor-Danforth extension before 2020.

 

[gweed123]

Just changing the institutions when the institutional culture remains is the road to not doing *anything* well. Metrolinx have NO experience with running local transit - only GO. What I think should happen is that Metrolinx evolving into an independent (read - no provincial influence, thank you) regional transit planning agency with the authority to levy taxes and user fees regionally - and perhaps as an extension of a GTA/GGH regional governance body. That would make far more of a difference than uploading local lines to it.

AoD

I think what Metrolinx should do first is try uploading a smaller transit agency, like Burlington Transit for example. BT would be taken off Burlington's books, but the Provincial subsidy to the City would be reduced by a corresponding amount, so the overall budgetary effect is neutral.

Eventually then Metrolinx can move on to YRT or DRT, before finally absorbing the TTC.

Because the agencies that are being absorbed will cease to exist, Metrolinx has the opportunity to do a little bit of a purge, and to reset the wages and service expectations to what they want them to be.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Of course it would - but is it really that difficult to keep it going for 5 more years?

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

gweed:

The issue here is that I don't trust the competence of the province to look out for the interests of the region. Imagine a scenario of how much power a less friendly provincial government would have over local transit issues? Decouple the province and Metrolinx and then I think we should go forward - otherwise, no thanks.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

Of course it would - but is it really that difficult to keep it going for 5 more years?

AoD

I think putting up with the SRT for 5 more years would be a lot easier for Scarborough residents to swallow when they started seeing the construction sites for the subway stations start popping up (or digging down rather).

It would be interesting to see a poll as to which option residents would prefer:

1) Shutdown the SRT in 2015 + 3-4 years of shuttle buses = New LRT along the same route as the old SRT

2) Stuck with the SRT until 2020 + an extra $400 million in tax dollars = Bloor-Danforth Subway extension

My bet is on #2.

 

[gweed123]

gweed:

The issue here is that I don't trust the competence of the province to look out for the interests of the region. Imagine a scenario of how much power a less friendly provincial government would have over local transit issues? Decouple the province and Metrolinx and then I think we should go forward - otherwise, no thanks.

AoD

I would hope that eventually Metrolinx would be raising enough funds through it's own efforts (1% sales tax across the whole GGH by my estimate would bring in around $1.4 billion per year, not to mention road tolls, parking levees, etc) that it wouldn't need to rely on Provincial funding in order to run.

What I'd like to see is the stake in Metrolinx divided up amongst various levels of government so that no single government controls a majority share (and thus no single government would be able to act unilaterally). Something like 40% Provincial, 50% GGH Municipalities, 10% Federal.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Metrolinx could also get into the real estate business in developing areas in the GTA and still continue to own the land so they can receive perpetual leases and build new rapid transit systems into them, and in Toronto as well.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

gweed:

I would hope that eventually Metrolinx would be raising enough funds through it's own efforts (1% sales tax across the whole GGH by my estimate would bring in around $1.4 billion per year, not to mention road tolls, parking levees, etc) that it wouldn't need to rely on Provincial funding in order to run.

But see herein lies the chicken and the egg - Metrolinx having to seek provincial approval to raise the funds runs head on with the provincial interest in NOT having to be held responsible for raising it. That is a recipe for inaction - and it is very much the reason why the movement on that front is glacial. Also don't forget historically provincial regional planning had been a disaster in the making as well - literred with squandered opportunities. Why should needs in the region, when the region is clearly rich enough to fund itself, be subjected to the need for the government to look good elsewhere in the province or the need to score brownie points in a certain area of a certain municipality?

What I'd like to see is the stake in Metrolinx divided up amongst various levels of government so that no single government controls a majority share (and thus no single government would be able to act unilaterally). Something like 40% Provincial, 50% GGH Municipalities, 10% Federal.

Except that is also a recipe for gridlock as well.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

I agree that it needs to be done delicately, but it needs to happen. Metrolinx needs to become quasi-independent, controlled by more than just one group, with no group having a controlling stake. It's not really independent if one level of government can unilaterally disband it.

Waterfront Toronto, for all the problems that is has, has survived for nearly 10 years, and has gone through a lot of different changes in government. The biggest problem is has right now is the lack of funding, which wouldn't be as big of a problem if it had its own dedicated revenue stream.

I think that model is a pretty valid model to be followed. The biggest difference in the structure would be multiple local governments, not just one.

 

[gweed123]

I've made some updates to my map.

1) Biggest change is the realignment of the DRL to use a Parliament-Don Valley alignment instead of Riverdale-Pape. Much shorter alignment, much less expensive, and a far greater amount of development opportunities along Parliament than in Riverdale.


2) Extension of Kingston BRT to UTSC, with the ability to run back into STC along Ellesmere.

3) Realignment of the Finch East BRT to run to Sheppard East station & McCowan. That way at least Finch East passengers have direct subway access.

 

[datamouse]

Well that was shot down quickly. The three year delay on Sheppard is interesting though.