OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[ChesterCopperpot]

It doesn't mention anything to do with gambling addiction specifically there

 

[RC8]

The link has been proven to death elsewhere. But I was merely pointing out that bringing up Vegas as some sort of public health role model in this debate is a really stupid thing to do.

 

[BobBob]

A passionate and fairly well-written perspective on this in the Toronto Standard:
http://www.torontostandard.com/the-sprawl/a-downtown-casino-would-be-an-unmitigated-disaster

 

[Automation Gallery]

A passionate and fairly well-written perspective on this in the Toronto Standard:
http://www.torontostandard.com/the-sprawl/a-downtown-casino-would-be-an-unmitigated-disaster

Lol, Ohh please...this article is disturbing and so one-sided
Gee...talk about trying to brainwash and put the fear of god into people..Craaazzy


A Downtown Casino Would be an Unmitigated Disaster
They may have been ruthless killers, but at least the gangsters in The Godfather had the decency to put their casino in a desertSome Torontonians are willing to permit casino development despite their reservations, but they don’t know the harm casinos cause, and why would they? It’s never been necessary to know before. Others, under the mistaken belief that they have accurately weighed the costs and benefits of a downtown casino, are decidedly in favour of it because they feel the money it will allegedly raise outweighs their principled concern. For brevity and clarity’s sake, I’ll call this group whores (in the Churchillian sense). When they look at things more carefully, they’ll change their mind (I flirted with whoring for an instant). The final group of casino proponents are the pimps who own the casino and want to make ceaseless profits at the city’s expense. This article is addressed to the first two groups, the latter obviously having their minds’ made up..

CASINOS KILL NEIGHBOURHOODS:
Casinos suck you in and use famously flagrant and cynical measures from letting you out, ensuring casino patrons never reach the outside environment let alone enhance it by their presence. There are no exit signs to help gamblers leave. Windowless rooms without clocks dupe gamblers into staying longer than intended, and make it easy to forget what time of day or night it is. Casinos constantly stimulate patrons with loud sounds and flashy lights, and their temperatures are kept cool to keep people alert and awake

TOURISM...“Experience has shown elsewhere that casinos make business in the area go bankrupt.â€

CASINOS ARE DAMAGING, YES, BUT WE NEED THE MONEY:
This is the whores’ central claim, fueled by the pimps’ delusion. Real life prostitutes are tragically promised money and glamour beyond what arrives, and here is no different. The naive whores in favour of the casino must change their mind now before they learn too late that they’re not high-class call girls or boys, but street prostitutes taken in alleys for $10 suck and fucks. I’m only crude to draw attention to the fact that it’s absurd that very decent people are so ready to accept something that will undoubtedly ruin thousands of people, and greatly damage segments of central Toronto itself. The only explanation is that they grossly underrate the damage a casino will inflict and overvalue the benefits. (I don’t mean to make light of the plight of prostitutes, but I highlight it because there’s a parallel; the city must not willingly get exploited in similar fashion.)

 

[caehlan]

Yes, but as I said it was dead before, too. There's a really neat waterfront promenade and the revitalisation of the area East of the casino (which predates it) is brilliant, but go one block west and you are in a horrible place. It doesn't help it's surrounded by highways. I'm not blaming the casino for this, but pointing out that the neighbourhood it's in is not equivalent to Front and Blue Jays Way, where the mode share for car trips is under 15%.

From what I have seen the casino has been one of the catalysts for revitalization in the area. It was one of the first major additions to the area almost 20 years ago. Since then the southbank area has grown into a very popular destination for locals and tourists alike. The new convention and exhibition center was built south across the road. A massive amount of new residential buildings have been built to the immediate east of the area. You have public transit (trams) going down all 3 roads surrounding the casino. The promenade area is being extended further south into a new community called south wharf. The revitalization of the southbank area has also made the immediate suburb, south Melbourne, transform from down and out into a very desirable inner city neighbourhood.

It's by no means perfect, but the progress in 20 years is staggering if you take a step back and look at it as a whole. It's by no means all due to the casino... but its far from a case of the casino preventing the neighbourhood from improving. If they could bury the last section of the west gate freeway, it would do a lot to connect the area into a seamless neighbourhood.

 

[tiffer24]

A passionate and fairly well-written perspective on this in the Toronto Standard:
http://www.torontostandard.com/the-sprawl/a-downtown-casino-would-be-an-unmitigated-disaster

More moral goodness.
"Casino tycoons are not exactly arms dealers, but they are wolves, not sheep. Whatever their pitch, ignore them totally. To borrow an effective warning from a very different context: Keep away, keep away. Avoid, refrain, don’t. I should like here a full list of all possible interdictions, vetoes and threats."

Praise the lord and protect the citizens of this gambling free city. Oddly disturbing article in it's 19th century view on morality and civic purity. Atleast it has the honesty to state it's intentions, all fire and brimstone and judgement.

 

[adma]

The "group whore" metaphor, though, makes for an apt parallel to my past comparisons of UTers who go ga-ga over ooh! aah! glossy renderings of skyscrapers, casino resorts, etc to the sorts of guys whose notion of desirable femininity is drawn completely from Victoria's Secret catalogues and the like...

 

[Automation Gallery]

The "group whore" metaphor, though, makes for an apt parallel to my past comparisons of UTers who go ga-ga over ooh! aah! glossy renderings of skyscrapers, casino resorts, etc to the sorts of guys whose notion of desirable femininity is drawn completely from Victoria's Secret catalogues and the like...

"different strokes for different folks,"

 

[jaycola]

I think that article called me a "whore"...I've been called a lot of things but never that...well...forget it.

I think the article I sourced on the previous page provided much more in terms of balance and dealt with the key issues at hand in the casino debate, both pro and con, than the vulgar, ideological crap that was the article above (as well written as it apparently was) provided.

If gaming inhabits a space within a diversified tourism industry and within a diversified economy, though, communities may benefit – if they can successfully measure and manage gambling’s social and economic costs.

A casino in Toronto could succeed if he risks were well managed. Maybe we should focus on this risk management rather than discounting it outright?

From the report.

Should Toronto City Council decide to host a casino in Toronto, the Board of Health
recommends a number of measures that should be considered to reduce or prevent the
harms from gambling:
Limit casino hours of operation (no 24-hour access to casinos)
Limit electronic gaming machines (such as slot machines), slow down their
speed of play and control their operation
Eliminate casino loyalty programs
Prohibit ATMs on the casino floor
Prohibit casino credit and holding accounts
Reduce maximum bet sizes
Require daily loss maximums
Implement strong casino self-exclusion programs
Issue monthly statements to gamblers
Restrict where alcohol can be purchased/served

Ok...let's make the Toronto officer of health happy and implement all of these...

180 million customers live and work within a day’s drive of Toronto, including 125 million Americans or roughly 40 per cent of the U.S. population.

The goal of this casino should be to tap into the potential customers who live within a day's drive of the city, not to tap the local customers who suffer from gambling addiction. Lets do what we can to mitigate that problem and put the casino where it would be the greatest success fr attracting tourists and convention trade.

 

[RC8]

The goal of this casino should be to tap into the potential customers who live within a day's drive of the city, not to tap the local customers who suffer from gambling addiction. Lets do what we can to mitigate that problem and put the casino where it would be the greatest success fr attracting tourists and convention trade.

How could that go wrong?!

 

[adma]

"different strokes for different folks,"

In light of my Victoria's Secret metaphor, "strokes" is probably true in your case

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Adma's world view is unfortunately a world view firmly entrenched in the 19th century, supported by a paternalistic father-knows-best attitude, people who seem to be entitled to make moral judgements on behalf of everyone else, inluding the "uneducated" or the "unwashed". Many times on this forum it's taken for granted that no one else is capable of holding thoughts or opinions on their own when it comes to the city in which they live. Dismissed, please go to the back of the bus. Throwing in a few slangy current references do not hide the fact that posters like this find other opinions quaint, cute but ultimately beneath their paternalistic "vastly superior intellect". This is heavy duty moralism at work here--and it's really apparent when it comes to a discussion about a Toronto casino. Fire, brimstone and judgement find a home easily here.

alllrighty then...

 

[nfitz]

My personal concern is more with violent assaults and disturbances, not organised crime per se.

Everything everyone linked further down didn't really have much conclusive to say about this (other than perhaps organized crime - which isn't really a neighbourhood issue). The only possible link I could see, was if suddenly an area was busier because of more people being around, then crime would, of course, increase ... but without any change to the crime rate.

If there were more cars, and more flat tires (because there were no cars there previously to get flat tires), would we be talking about a "flat-tire" problem?

 

[jje1000]

The goal of this casino should be to tap into the potential customers who live within a day's drive of the city, not to tap the local customers who suffer from gambling addiction. Lets do what we can to mitigate that problem and put the casino where it would be the greatest success fr attracting tourists and convention trade.

That is literally impossible if you're placing a casino smack downtown, which everyone can access easily. The only way it can be achieved is by placing a ban on people with financial issues or gambling problems, like they have in Singapore, or banning locals altogether, like they have in Monaco.

In the end, a casino wants people to stay, and they want repeat customers, preferably those who like to come more than once or twice a year.

 

[TOperson]

Adma's world view is unfortunately a world view firmly entrenched in the 19th century, supported by a paternalistic father-knows-best attitude, people who seem to be entitled to make moral judgements on behalf of everyone else, inluding the "uneducated" or the "unwashed". Many times on this forum it's taken for granted that no one else is capable of holding thoughts or opinions on their own when it comes to the city in which they live. Dismissed, please go to the back of the bus. Throwing in a few slangy current references do not hide the fact that posters like this find other opinions quaint, cute but ultimately beneath their paternalistic "vastly superior intellect". This is heavy duty moralism at work here--and it's really apparent when it comes to a discussion about a Toronto casino. Fire, brimstone and judgement find a home easily here.

The arguments in favour of a casino are not morally neutral. It is a well-documented fact that increased access to gambling leads to increases in problem gambling and addictions. To know that and say "allow the casino anyway" is to prioritize the entertainment options of some people and the minor economic benefit to the public purse over the suffering of those affected by problem gambling. That's a moral choice. Real human suffering pretty much always involves a moral choice.