OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[Markham VIP]

To TOareaFan:

You seem to have a strong "gut feeling" about the casino. Same goes for me my friend....my "gut feeling" tells me Downtown Markham.
In my opinion, Markham will be presenting a firm business plan to OLG in the near future (maybe they already have). Until that happens, you are free to doubt that Markham is even interested.

Toronto, on the other hand, will send OLG and email saying "Dear OLG, we don't know what the hell we are doing. We want the casino, but we don't want the casino. We are so disorganized and have no money to even hold a referendum. Please give us more time...how much?...We don't know. P.s. can we put a KFC in the new casino? Signed Rob Ford."

Until the media recently reported that Mississauga was interested, you doubted that. It was impossible for you to believe until you had confirmation.
Well the same will be true with Markham. Soon, in the near future, it will be made public that Markham has made a bid for the casino. Then you will have your confirmation that you seek.

Don't forget, we have a bunch of billionaires backing us....and OLG and the Province will want this casino built sonner rather than later, to tackle the Provincial debt.

 

[TOareaFan]

To TOareaFan:

You seem to have a strong "gut feeling" about the casino. Same goes for me my friend....my "gut feeling" tells me Downtown Markham.
In my opinion, Markham will be presenting a firm business plan to OLG in the near future (maybe they already have). Until that happens, you are free to doubt that Markham is even interested.

Toronto, on the other hand, will send OLG and email saying "Dear OLG, we don't know what the hell we are doing. We want the casino, but we don't want the casino. We are so disorganized and have no money to even hold a referendum. Please give us more time...how much?...We don't know. P.s. can we put a KFC in the new casino? Signed Rob Ford."

Until the media recently reported that Mississauga was interested, you doubted that. It was impossible for you to believe until you had confirmation.
Well the same will be true with Markham. Soon, in the near future, it will be made public that Markham has made a bid for the casino. Then you will have your confirmation that you seek.

Don't forget, we have a bunch of billionaires backing us....and OLG and the Province will want this casino built sonner rather than later, to tackle the Provincial debt.

Firstly, I don't care where it goes.

Secondly...you seemed to be above the level of debate that mocked other people (the city of Toronto...Mayor Ford) so try to avoid that. I am, neither, a Toronto resident nor a "fordite" but I don't enjoy making fun of people's eating in discussions that have nothing to do with it.

Thirdly....all I did was ask for links to articles/quotes that showed Markham, Mississauga and "others" (as the Province kept saying) had expressed interest. All I have seen about Markham is you (rather eloquantly) making a case for Markham but no expression of solid "We are all behind it" interest from council and we got one article in the Star where some members of Mississauga Council expressed support but others, remarkably, said that if they were to go beyond a conversion of bingo halls to include some electronic gambling (ie. if they were going to consider a casino) then they too would need a referendum....just like Toronto. "Others" have yet to be identified.

My, rather large, gut (my "spidey senses") just tells me that the province wants this in Toronto....they know that any private sector investors with the money/clout to pull this off also want it in Toronto so they are trying to create an environment that encourages Toronto to act faster and to act in a way that this ends up in Toronto.....and if they can solve OP at the same time....that is what they will do.

I have never held that out to be something I am cheering for....nor have I intoned that it is based upon some great knowledge....just a feeling I get.

 

[ttk77]

The OLG on their own may see Markham as almost as good a location as dt Toronto, but any company like MGM willing to invest multi-billions of dollars will insist on a high profile location in an internationally known city. Markham, as well planned and well-off as it is right now, does not meet that requirement.

 

[coolcanadian]

So do you actually think that a City Center-like complex ($9+ billion; 6,000+ hotel rooms plus condos; tram line; luxury shopping complex) is going to be built in Toronto? That sounds more like a Doug Ford-like ferris wheel/monorail fantasy.

Just because eager developers are throwing around the $B word and talking about lakefront "resorts", doesn't mean it's going to happen--and doesn't mean they aren't going to want huge tax and land concessions (and the prospect of keeping most of the casino profits), too.

These casino people are not dumb. They've seen how gullible the Ford brothers can be. And now they may have a willing partner in the province. But you don't get money for nothing. Nobody's going to build a multi-billion dollar resort unless they think they can make billions of dollars of profit.

While I'm not totally against the casino, I think we need to think long and hard about all aspects. And we also need to be realistice about costs, incentives, job creation (are blackjack dealer and cocktail waitress good jobs to create?). Let's look at examples like Montreal, Vancouver, Windsor, Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans, etc. What were the projections (costs, job creation, benefits to the city) and what was the reality 5, 10 years later.

Casinos do not integrate well with the city. They draw people in (to gamble, eat, shop, sleep), the don't want them to leave the property. Do we want to draw people away from our downtown and our neighborhoods, or do we want attractions that are integrated with the city?

The entire City Center complex was $8B, but you can compare this to Aria, Vdara, or other hotels in City Center.

And yes, I do think there will be a shopping complex and large hotel here. Only 5% is to be a casino! And actually, many casinos have awesome outside features that connect with people at street level. Shall we take a look?

All of these are free, and outside of the casino:

Pirate Show, Treasure Island

Erupting Volcano, Mirage

Fountains, Bellagio

Gondola, Venetian

Fire Show, Crown, Melbourne

And look at this!

Serendipity, Ceaser's

Restaurant at street level, Paris

So yes, these do help at street level. However, I guarantee you that if this is built out in some suburb, the street and surroundings will be terrible. Downtown Toronto is very walkable, so the complex will mend to that.

 

[taal]

Lets us just relax, I think this is far from a done deal at this point and it wouldn't surprise me if it went in Toronto, Markham, Mississauga, or any other place in the GTA.

Clearly we all have our preferences, some based purely on where they live, maybe not what makes the most business sense (and there's nothing wrong with having pride in your community).
The ones who need to be more vocal are ones with strong objections to a casino no matter where it goes for moral reasons, not the built form, there's always a chance to get that right.

 

[gristle]

Maybe the thing should be located near CAMH - given the number of ads for gambling addiction problems that the Ontario government has been pumping out.

 

[Markham VIP]

Firstly, I don't care where it goes.

Secondly...you seemed to be above the level of debate that mocked other people (the city of Toronto...Mayor Ford) so try to avoid that. I am, neither, a Toronto resident nor a "fordite" but I don't enjoy making fun of people's eating in discussions that have nothing to do with it.

Thirdly....all I did was ask for links to articles/quotes that showed Markham, Mississauga and "others" (as the Province kept saying) had expressed interest. All I have seen about Markham is you (rather eloquantly) making a case for Markham but no expression of solid "We are all behind it" interest from council and we got one article in the Star where some members of Mississauga Council expressed support but others, remarkably, said that if they were to go beyond a conversion of bingo halls to include some electronic gambling (ie. if they were going to consider a casino) then they too would need a referendum....just like Toronto. "Others" have yet to be identified.

My, rather large, gut (my "spidey senses") just tells me that the province wants this in Toronto....they know that any private sector investors with the money/clout to pull this off also want it in Toronto so they are trying to create an environment that encourages Toronto to act faster and to act in a way that this ends up in Toronto.....and if they can solve OP at the same time....that is what they will do.

I have never held that out to be something I am cheering for....nor have I intoned that it is based upon some great knowledge....just a feeling I get.

You are correct about my comment about Rob Ford...I apologize for that.
And I apologize if I am coming across as hating on Toronto.
I don't hate Toronto....I am just excited about the possibility of a casino in Downtown Markham. I am excited at the fact that the OLG and the Province use the word "GTA" casino, and not "Toronto" casino. I am excited that the timing seems PERFECT as the VIVA "rapidway" is underway on Hwy 7, as well as the start of several large projects in Downtown Markham such as the new NHL-Sized arena which should be approved by council next week. It seems like everything is falling into place....and the casino would be the icing on the cake.

Toronto is the part of the GTA that is already developed....does it really need a casino? Does it really need to develop more? Can't the rest of the GTA get some arenas and casinos to help their development too? I believe that the Province sees it that way as well. I think that they already invested $1.4 Billion in 2009 in the VIVA rapidway along Hwy 7, and they now want to get some benefit out of that investment.

All the pieces seem to fit, and it's not just me....there are others in this forum, who are very knowledgeable about Downtown Markham, who have agreed that a casino there is a good possibility. If the only thing that prevents you from seeing that is confirmation by the media...then it's only a matter of time.

 

[taal]

Markham VIP, you don't seem to check out any of the other forms so I'll just post this here, check out the public meeting tomorrow about stadium in downtown Markham (that looks to be a go), I'm not sure where it is though.

You could potentially ask about the casino there, take picture if you can ! Thanks.

 

[Markham VIP]

Markham VIP, you don't seem to check out any of the other forms so I'll just post this here, check out the public meeting tomorrow about stadium in downtown Markham (that looks to be a go), I'm not sure where it is though.

You could potentially ask about the casino there, take picture if you can ! Thanks.

The public meeting is at 1:30pm tomorrow. Unfortunaltely, I wont be able to make it as I have work. (Tempting to call in sick, but not gonna happen)
Instead, I may go to the one next Thursday which is at 7:00pm.

If I get a chance to ask a councillor about the casino....I will

 

[Electrify]

As much as I hate to say it, an $8 billion casino resort would go great with a monorail, ferris wheel, and mega-mall...

But seriously, I think with some good planning on behalf of the city and MGM, scale will not be an issue. Downtown Toronto is not like the CBD of some midwest sprawlopolis. To start, the price of land has a much higher price tag attached to it here, thus limiting its size while ensuring optimum density. Second, Toronto does not have the road infrastructure to properly handle a casino oriented towards drivers in or near the downtown core, so a mega complex will not be attractive. Add to this the ARL line from Pearson, and I think that not catering specifically to tourists who arrived here by car will not be an issue.

Finally, trends in urban design are changing dramatically from those of even just a decade ago, let alone 20-30+ years when the casinos pictured above were built. There generally seems to not only be a focus on increased density, but a manageable human scale as well. Oversized complexes with massive buildings are seen as unattractive and unsustainable. I'm willing to bet that whatever the concept drawings produce, they will be large and dense, but also attractive and on a human scale as well.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

You are correct about my comment about Rob Ford...I apologize for that.
And I apologize if I am coming across as hating on Toronto.
I don't hate Toronto....I am just excited about the possibility of a casino in Downtown Markham. I am excited at the fact that the OLG and the Province use the word "GTA" casino, and not "Toronto" casino. I am excited that the timing seems PERFECT as the VIVA "rapidway" is underway on Hwy 7, as well as the start of several large projects in Downtown Markham such as the new NHL-Sized arena which should be approved by council next week. It seems like everything is falling into place....and the casino would be the icing on the cake.

Toronto is the part of the GTA that is already developed....does it really need a casino? Does it really need to develop more? Can't the rest of the GTA get some arenas and casinos to help their development too? I believe that the Province sees it that way as well. I think that they already invested $1.4 Billion in 2009 in the VIVA rapidway along Hwy 7, and they now want to get some benefit out of that investment.

All the pieces seem to fit, and it's not just me....there are others in this forum, who are very knowledgeable about Downtown Markham, who have agreed that a casino there is a good possibility. If the only thing that prevents you from seeing that is confirmation by the media...then it's only a matter of time.

Sir: You are talking about york region. Oshawa and Oakville and Mississauga are for the most part developed. Something tells me you will not be as exited if Mississauga gets this casino.

 

[Markham VIP]

Sir: You are talking about york region. Oshawa and Oakville and Mississauga are for the most part developed. Something tells me you will not be as exited if Mississauga gets this casino.

"Developed" is a subjective term. When I use it to describe Toronto I am referring to economic development. How we choose to measure that would require another forum......
Without having to google some economic data for you, I think we all know what I mean by "Toronto is the developed part of the GTA".

And no....I would not be excited if Misissauga got the casino. It wouldn't make sense to me why the OLG would choose to have two GTA gaming facilities located in the west-end.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

"Developed" is a subjective term. When I use it to describe Toronto I am referring to economic development. How we choose to measure that would require another forum......
Without having to google some economic data for you, I think we all know what I mean by "Toronto is the developed part of the GTA".

And no....I would not be excited if Misissauga got the casino. It wouldn't make sense to me why the OLG would choose to have two GTA gaming facilities located in the west-end.

That is fair.Welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy. Join the thread about ford, we have almost 800,000 views.

 

[canmark]

David Olive in the Star: Why a Toronto casino is a crapshoot on the waterfront

 

[Automation Gallery]

Gee...all the Big Boys want in

Possible Caesars Toronto worries Windsor

Published reports that gaming giant Caesars is considering becoming involved in a Toronto casino have officials in Windsor, Ont., concerned.

Caesars has run the Windsor's casino since 2008.

Ontario Lottery and Gaming announced plans last month to open a new gaming facility centre in the Greater Toronto Area — and Caesars is interested in being part of that.

“Absolutely, we’re interested,” Caesars Entertainment executive vice-president of communications and government relations Jan Jones told the National Post.

Key players refuse to speculate on what that could mean for Windsor, but some admit they have concerns.

"I think it’s way too early to even begin to speculate on that," Mayor Eddie Francis said. "With regards to a casino in another market, it’s something we’ve been living with ever since the first one opened here in Windsor.

"With regards to Toronto, I’m told it’s a different market with different people."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/story/2012/04/20/wdr-caesars-toronto.html