OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[taal]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1161181--montreal-casino-blessing-or-blight

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1161263--do-casinos-drive-up-the-crime-rate

A couple of Star stories that I don't think have been linked yet. Neither gives a definitive answer on the issue, but it's revelatory (although whether about gambling or The Star's trying to slant the issue, I don't know) that (a) they went to the casino at four in the morning to interview folks and (b) there were folks there to be interviewed, throwing coins in the slots.

My biggest issue, I have to admit, is my personal bias against slots. I don't think they're fun, the people playing them don't look like they're having fun, and I saw some friends putting fortunes into them when they had the video versions in bars in Alberta when I was growing up. So... I think I'm starting to move into the 'no casino' camp. The idea we need MORE five star hotels or MORE live theatre seems dubious at best. The casino on its own is just a different way for the gov't to fleece revenue from the flock. I'd rather we didn't have to be fleeced, by lowering expenditures at the margin.

I don't think Toronto will fight too hard for this, frankly. The Fords might like it, but I'm betting that MGM takes one look at the Portlands and says we want to put a casino on the CNE/Ontario Place/Entertainment District/Harbourfront/Bremner, not out in the boondocks. And then the Fords have a choice: do we fight for this even though our buddies won't make a dime and the socialists will be killing us, or do we fight tooth and nail to convert the Convention Centre into a casino? My bet is they won't be able to stomach the fight.

Oh to be clear I'm not at all dabbling into the moral issues at play here, I'll be the first to admit there are serious negative impacts. I don't think the fact you find it fun or not is very important ? I don't mean that in a negative context, just simply put some people don't like hockey, yet it makes millions.

But to add, I find gambling boring as well


Regarding your comment about Ford, I'm not so sure. I think they'll work with the "US OR THEM" argument i.e. we're going to lose out to one of our 905 neighborhoods.

I've read up on some of studies and its hard to deny in all cases there is generally positive impact purely from a monetary point of view. Now if you factor in the long term costs that may be associated it more then likely will throw that out the door but politicians are short term in their perspective.

Clearly in the short term it'll likely entice a lot of infrastructure spending and likely attract other retails to the area.

I'm not one to believe this will negatively impact other Toronto business, Toronto is a huge city. If this were to go on the portlands or any other such location I think *new* customers would likely make up the majority of attendees, customers who likely wouldn't come downtown otherwise.

 

[Thanos]

With Toronto's downtown condo boom, it has brought back diverse people living in the downtown core. Will desirability to live close to work and entertainment be effected by a mega casino resort on the waterfront? If we look at Atlantic City, we can find that there was increase in crime when it opened its city to casinos. Crime grew from 100.6 per 1000 peoples in 1977 to 353.7 in 1984. Atlantic City in 1977 was rated the most violent crime cities in the U.S. The crime also affected neighbouring municipalities as well, such as Ventor which is adjacent to Atlantic City rose from 51.4 per 1000 people to 62.6 in 1977. Crime is what drove residents out to suburbs in the 1980s in Toronto. If Toronto plans to have its casino, the rest of the GTA will feel its effects.

http://www.futuretoronto.ca/2012/04/casino-in-toronto-is-it-good-idea.html

There's an MGM Grand in Detroit. Despite its proximity to Toronto you don't hear much about it. So there's no guarranty an operator like MGM will draw hoards of tourists to Toronto.

I also wonder if this proposed mega project ("hotels, restaurants, spas and convention facilities") would draw the ire of local businesses (hotels, restaurants, spas, convention facilities, performance venues and shops) who might fear that their business will be taken away by a casino resort.

While there's no question the Fords' eyes are lighting up at the thought of casinos, resorts, hotels, restaurants, monorails, ferris wheels, etc. (and particularly the multi-billion dollar price tag--remember the highly touted billion dollar Woodbine Live project that Rob Ford brags about being his accomplishment?), does Toronto really want to swim with those fishes? Do we want to let those kinds of developers come in and take over the Portlands, or Ontario Place, for instance? Do we want to be Atlantic City on Lake Ontario? Or flailing Detroit, which has some four casinos in the area, in a vain attempt to stave off decline?

And who is going to profit more from a casino: the casino operator or the city and its inhabitants?

Why on earth are you using US cities as examples. You have examples right here in Canada. Could it be that those Canadian examples might actually make the whole casino idea more favorable.

 

[Markham VIP]

Has anyone other than the province stated that Mississauga and Markham and "others" have an interest? Is it possible that the province is "playing" Toronto with the "threat" of locating outside, but near, the city?

Do you really think that the OLG would make such a proposal without already knowing where they want to put it?
They can't just come out and say, "we are building a casino in Markham", because other municipalities would be pissed that they never got the chance to at least make a proposal. The Province has to make it fair for all.

The Town of Markham already has a clear business plan to propose to the Province. Do you think Toronto is as organized as Markham is? Markham knows exactly where to put the casino, what the transporation model will look like, and where the private investment will come from. The Remington Group and the Town of Markham already plan to develop the area with or without the casino. They already plan to build all those restaurants, retail-shops, hotels, and all those other things that the province says will be the economic spin-off of a casino. The Town of Markham wants the casino, and the Province wants the casino in Town of Markham. It's only a matter of time.

Toronto is still trying to debate amongst itself whether they feel a casino will increase the crime rate and will lead to the social downfall of the city. They don't know where to put the casino, and they don't have a plan for transporation and the increased congestion that a casino would cause. They also don't know if they want to spend $7 million to have a referendum on a casino. Afterall, they already had a referendum in 1997 where over 70% of the people voted against a casino. Shouldn't the results from that referendum stand? OLG has stated in it's report to the province that the proposed modernization of the OLG will be completed by 2017.

The following link is the OLG modernization report given to the Provincial government:
http://www.olg.ca/assets/documents/media/strategic_business_review2012.pdf

Please note the following extracts:
"New or relocated gaming sites would only go to municipalities that have explicitly approved them and where there is a clear business case. OLG and the government would continue to have the right to approve new or relocated gaming sites". (Page 13)
- Town of Markham has a crystle clear business plan.

"This would include identifying distinct gaming zones where existing or new gaming sites could be permitted. These defined gaming zones will help reduce the impact of one gaming site upon another. Customer interest should determine the size and genre of gaming facility in a zone" (Page 16)
- Gaming at woodine already, Gaming in durham already......no gaming in York Region.

"In new and renewed facilities, OLG will have the opportunity to increase environmental efforts. New buildings are likely to be LEED (Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design) certified—as are OLG’s most recent gaming site developments". (Page 20)
- Downtown Markham is currently the largest LEED-certified, mixed-use development in North America.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

If it is fact, as you claim it is, then why is MGM (still) knocking on Toronto's door...and not Markham's, as far as we know? And where is the clear business case that you spoke of? I would imagine something this important would be available on the part of the town's reports and such? As to the bit about LEED certification - that's pretty much applicable to every major development of late, and an utterly meaningless, "feel good" criteria when you are talking about a facility that will be responsible for, depending on the siteing, a significant amount of additional automobile usage.

AoD

 

[Thanos]

A casino in Markham will be no different then what Casino Rama is.

 

[MadMax]

MGM will not put a casino in Markham...if a casino is approved in Markham it will only be because Toronto rejected one. MGM is only interested in one thing and that's the TDot.

 

[taal]

Do you really think that the OLG would make such a proposal without already knowing where they want to put it?
They can't just come out and say, "we are building a casino in Markham", because other municipalities would be pissed that they never got the chance to at least make a proposal. The Province has to make it fair for all.

The Town of Markham already has a clear business plan to propose to the Province. Do you think Toronto is as organized as Markham is? Markham knows exactly where to put the casino, what the transporation model will look like, and where the private investment will come from. The Remington Group and the Town of Markham already plan to develop the area with or without the casino. They already plan to build all those restaurants, retail-shops, hotels, and all those other things that the province says will be the economic spin-off of a casino. The Town of Markham wants the casino, and the Province wants the casino in Town of Markham. It's only a matter of time.

Toronto is still trying to debate amongst itself whether they feel a casino will increase the crime rate and will lead to the social downfall of the city. They don't know where to put the casino, and they don't have a plan for transporation and the increased congestion that a casino would cause. They also don't know if they want to spend $7 million to have a referendum on a casino. Afterall, they already had a referendum in 1997 where over 70% of the people voted against a casino. Shouldn't the results from that referendum stand? OLG has stated in it's report to the province that the proposed modernization of the OLG will be completed by 2017.

The following link is the OLG modernization report given to the Provincial government:
http://www.olg.ca/assets/documents/media/strategic_business_review2012.pdf

Please note the following extracts:
"New or relocated gaming sites would only go to municipalities that have explicitly approved them and where there is a clear business case. OLG and the government would continue to have the right to approve new or relocated gaming sites". (Page 13)
- Town of Markham has a crystle clear business plan.

"This would include identifying distinct gaming zones where existing or new gaming sites could be permitted. These defined gaming zones will help reduce the impact of one gaming site upon another. Customer interest should determine the size and genre of gaming facility in a zone" (Page 16)
- Gaming at woodine already, Gaming in durham already......no gaming in York Region.

"In new and renewed facilities, OLG will have the opportunity to increase environmental efforts. New buildings are likely to be LEED (Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design) certified—as are OLG’s most recent gaming site developments". (Page 20)
- Downtown Markham is currently the largest LEED-certified, mixed-use development in North America.

In many ways you are absolutely correct, if this was pure business decision that needed to be addressed now Markham would high on the list, but not as high as you think.

All the points you cite have exact parallels with the following projects:
VCC
Waterfront Toronto (particaly, east bayfront and or west bayfront)
- I won't include the portlands as that's further off.

Downtown Markham is a little ahead of both of these but not much really, at least not compared to waterfront Toronto, where construction of the first few residential buildings will be starting soon.

I also don't think the province requires the ideal area so I'd throw in Ontario place (it can develop in time for when the casino opens) and MCC.


So your argument really centers around the 'Markham has no politics' they are ready and willing today. So in terms of this you are right, but that is it ... none of your other points ...

 

[Markham VIP]

If it is fact, as you claim it is, then why is MGM (still) knocking on Toronto's door...and not Markham's, as far as we know? And where is the clear business case that you spoke of? I would imagine something this important would be available on the part of the town's reports and such?

AoD

Remember....what I am telling you about the casino coming to Downtown Markham is not factual (as far as I know). It is just my humble opinon.
However, it doesn't take a genious to see that all the pieces fit together.

In my opinion, MGM just wants a chance to take over Toronto's waterfront with a casino and resort. It doesn't take a million dollar CEO at MGM to hear that a casino may be coming to Toronto and to decide to have talks with the city.

Do you really think that MGM knows what OLG has planned?

In regards to the business case that Markham will propose....just give it some time my friend.....

 

[TOareaFan]

Do you really think that the OLG would make such a proposal without already knowing where they want to put it?
They can't just come out and say, "we are building a casino in Markham", because other municipalities would be pissed that they never got the chance to at least make a proposal. The Province has to make it fair for all.

I wasn't saying anything even close to that.

What I was saying was that the only mention I have read that Markham and Mississauga and "others" had expressed interest in the casino were quotes attributed to provincial authorites.

I was simply asking if anyone had quotes/links to where someone from Markham, or Mississauga or "others" had clearly come out and said "we want the proposed OLG GTA Casino in our municipality".

I think the OLG want it in Toronto proper and, likley, at OP. I also think they want it settled sooner rather than later (the budget issues they are trying to help are real and now not theoretical and in the future). In that case if certain people in Toronto are suggesting great reluctance over the casino, it would not be a bad negotiating ploy to create some urgency in Toronto by suggesting that Markham and Mississauga and "Others" have expressed interest.

That was the point of my question....nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Markham VIP]

In many ways you are absolutely correct, if this was pure business decision that needed to be addressed now Markham would high on the list, but not as high as you think.

All the points you cite have exact parallels with the following projects:
VCC
Waterfront Toronto (particaly, east bayfront and or west bayfront)
- I won't include the portlands as that's further off.

Downtown Markham is a little ahead of both of these but not much really, at least not compared to waterfront Toronto, where construction of the first few residential buildings will be starting soon.

I also don't think the province requires the ideal area so I'd throw in Ontario place (it can develop in time for when the casino opens) and MCC.


So your argument really centers around the 'Markham has no politics' they are ready and willing today. So in terms of this you are right, but that is it ... none of your other points ...

Im sure that many of my points have parallels to other parts of the GTA.
It doesn't really matter to me whether the OLG chooses Markham because of one or all of the many many points i have listed, or whether they choose us because as you put it "Markham has no politics, they are ready and willing today". All that matters to me is that the casino be built in Markham.

 

[Markham VIP]

I wasn't saying anything even close to that.

What I was saying was that the only mention I have read that Markham and Mississauga and "others" had expressed interest in the casino were quotes attributed to provincial authorites.

I was simply asking if anyone had quotes/links to where someone from Markham, or Mississauga or "others" had clearly come out and said "we want the proposed OLG GTA Casino in our municipality".

I think the OLG want it in Toronto proper and, likley, at OP. I also think they want it settled sooner rather than later (the budget issues they are trying to help are real and now not theoretical and in the future). In that case if certain people in Toronto are suggesting great reluctance over the casino, it would not be a bad negotiating ploy to create some urgency in Toronto by suggesting that Markham and Mississauga and "Others" have expressed interest.

That was the point of my question....nothing more, nothing less.

In my opinion, it is not just a negotiating ploy by the province.

I do agree with you though that the Province wants this settled sooner rather than later. As you elegantly put it, "the budget issues they are trying to help are real and now not theoretical and in the future". With that in mind, do you think that Toronto will be ready and willing on time? Markham is ready now! OLG has stated that they want their modernization proposals completed by 2017.

 

[TOareaFan]

In my opinion, it is not just a negotiating ploy by the province.

I do agree with you though that the Province wants this settled sooner rather than later. As you elegantly put it, "the budget issues they are trying to help are real and now not theoretical and in the future". With that in mind, do you think that Toronto will be ready and willing on time? Markham is ready now! OLG has stated that they want their modernization proposals completed by 2017.

I think the Province is trying to urge/push Toronto to decide in the very near term.

Again, though, I would love to see a link/quote from any Markham or Mississauga or "other" municipal official that says, unequivocably, "we want the casino". My guess is, that to some degree, every municipality would have a similar issue that Toronto has....that is there would be some members of council that would want it and some that would not. Are any of the area local governments uniformaly for, or against, any issue?

 

[taal]

Im sure that many of my points have parallels to other parts of the GTA.
It doesn't really matter to me whether the OLG chooses Markham because of one or all of the many many points i have listed, or whether they choose us because as you put it "Markham has no politics, they are ready and willing today". All that matters to me is that the casino be built in Markham.

Right, I think that much is very clear to all of us i.e. you're desire for this to come to fruition in Markham is rather personal.
So because of that you're getting questioned a lot as to the rationale behind a lot of your arguments.


So lets change this around a little why don't we ?

Why do you think this will benefit downtown Markham, I should add, I'm very familiar with the plans for the area (check out the thread on it in the neighborhoods section) so you don't need to play up the general idea. Actually I've been a big supporter of it and mentioned on several occasions it was the most interesting plan in the GTA to date.
BTW, I'm sure your aware but several things have already been cut back from the original plan, namely one of the public space components, which is regrettable.

Anyway I digress, here's my point:
I don't see this being an instance plus for downtown markham ! It would work well along side Pacific Mall (see I'm still meeting your Markham agenda), but the built form of Casino's isn't suited ideally for great urban neighborhoods. BTW I'll make the same point about arenes ; ) They take up massive plots of land where a bit part of them, less the front, doesn't contribute much at all, even the ones that are built to fit in more.

I guess downtown Markham is big enough area wise to aborb this and still create *actual* interesting neighborhoods.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

It would appear that Markham isn't that much different from Toronto:

http://www.yorkregion.com/article/1318647--casino-in-markham-centre-vision-councillor

In the late 1990s, town council unanimously rejected a proposal for a permanent charity casino in Markham.
A motion to place the question “Are you in favour of casinos in the Town of Markham?” on the ballot of the 1997 municipal election was defeated.
In 1998, the issue came before council again, with groups such as the Learning Disabilities Association of York, Markham Aquatics Club, Markham Gymnastics Club and Trillium Gaming Inc. speaking in support of a charity casino.
Town documents from the time show those who spoke in opposition included Markham Residents Against Gaming Expansion and a Markham Stouffville Hospital psychiatrist, who was also the vice-president of the Canadian Foundation on Compulsive Gamblers.
Council at the time, led by mayor Don Cousens, unanimously reconfirmed its opposition to a casino.

AoD

 

[taal]

I think the Province is trying to urge/push Toronto to decide in the very near term.

Again, though, I would love to see a link/quote from any Markham or Mississauga or "other" municipal official that says, unequivocably, "we want the casino". My guess is, that to some degree, every municipality would have a similar issue that Toronto has....that is there would be some members of council that would want it and some that would not. Are any of the area local governments uniformaly for, or against, any issue?

Yes, Markham will I guarantee you ... frankly I don't think they care what their citizens want (the current administration). But having said that I bet you a big majority won't care anyway.

Markham is pushing very hard for BOTH AN ARENA and CASINO ... this is for the downtown Markham district, they are not pushing for it anywhere else just here, its very specific.