OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[TOareaFan]

Yes, Markham will I guarantee you ... frankly I don't think they care what their citizens want (the current administration). But having said that I bet you a big majority won't care anyway.

Markham is pushing very hard for BOTH AN ARENA and CASINO ... this is for the downtown Markham district, they are not pushing for it anywhere else just here, its very specific.

Ok, I guess I am not phrasing my question very well. Irrespective of what you, or I, think Markham will do.....have they said they want the casino? Has the mayor (if that is what the Town of Markham has....if not, similar, position) come out and said "We want the the casino and I have the full backing of council" and, if that has happened, has the council all sat there and nodded their heads as they said that?

As for the arena.....I am pretty sure every GTA municipality would listen if Rudy Bratty suggested he was going to build that arena in their town and it would not cost them anything. Watching the news piece last night as they all went "in camera" they all seemed very keen to have "financial questions" answered.

 

[taal]

The OLG specifically mentioned they were interested, they didn't just say 'others in the GTA will step up' isn't that enough to go on there ?

 

[TOareaFan]

The OLG specifically mentioned they were interested, they didn't just say 'others in the GTA will step up' isn't that enough to go on there ?

My question was...is that real or, in the absence of real evidence, potentially a negotiating ploy that the OLG/Province is using to urge Toronto along.

EDIT: to elaborate.....the OLG could likely find someone on each council of each municipality (even Toronto) to say "they were interested".......but, to the best of my knowledge, no council has categorically (either by vote or joint expression/press release) said "we want the casino". So, if I were the Province and wanting to get Toronto to make a decision, I would publicly name municipalities that they have spoken to where, at least, one member of council or the mayor has expressed some interest.

I am not saying it is so but that, to me, looks like what is going on and I don't think this debate over whether a casino is a good idea or not is unique to Toronto.

 

[coolcanadian]

I really hope Toronto does get something from the MGM Hotel Group (who also owns Aria, Bellagio, and others).

First of all, if a casino is built, nothing forces anyone to go there. People who do not like to gamble will not need to. People who like to gamble will travel out of the city anyway to gamble, so having them spend money in Toronto is better than having them leave and spend money elsewhere.

You cannot compare a 2 - 6 billion dollar casino/resort complex to Rama, or anything else in Canada for that matter.

Also, yes, Rama isn't anything special... But its ISOLATED! A resort/casino in Downtown Toronto will be beautiful!

MGM wants to build something worth $2-6 Billion.

The Bellagio, one of the nicest hotels in Vegas, had a construction cost of 1.6 billion dollars.

The Wynn costed 2.7 Billion.

The Cosmopolitan was 3.9 Billion.

These are three of the NICEST hotels in Vegas. Something between 2 and 6 Billion is HUGE!!

You can't even compare this to the MGM in Detroit, which had a construction cost of 800 Million.


Also, the MGM in Detroit is by far the nicest hotel in the city.

Only 10% of the complex would be for gaming. This means we would be getting a Huge complex. Hotel, shops, convention, ect. Anyone who says it won't be good for tourism is wrong.

Building a casino/hotel will in no way hurt our city! People are scared of change, but such a project is beneficial!

I, for one, do not gamble. But such a complex brings much more! Shows, entertainment, dining. It's all good stuff!

 

[taal]

My question was...is that real or, in the absence of real evidence, potentially a negotiating ploy that the OLG/Province is using to urge Toronto along.

EDIT: to elaborate.....the OLG could likely find someone on each council of each municipality (even Toronto) to say "they were interested".......but, to the best of my knowledge, no council has categorically (either by vote or joint expression/press release) said "we want the casino". So, if I were the Province and wanting to get Toronto to make a decision, I would publicly name municipalities that they have spoken to where, at least, one member of council or the mayor has expressed some interest.

I am not saying it is so but that, to me, looks like what is going on and I don't think this debate over whether a casino is a good idea or not is unique to Toronto.

Anythingis possible TOareaFan ... but at some point one needs to reach there own conclusion regarding this. From what I've seen regarding other decisions in the past I think Markham's mayor will be very eager to get a casino.

You're absolutely correct that the same issues should apply to Toronto and Markham. But it's easier to get away with it in Markham isn't it ? There is so much less media attention that hardly anyone will bring up the potential negatives associated with a casino ... or even admit negatives exist !

I'm sure MarkhamVIP and the mayor are counting on that, and it will likely be the case.

Of course having said that some counselors will likely voice concerns but all of this will be kept very quiet. Just like the decision to build an Arena. You can really get away with anything in the suburbs, generally this works out for the better btw. In Toronto, a 0.00001% tax hike will be the top story in each paper. During this time some suburbs could be raising taxes 3/4% and you won't here anything. That's a really bad example btw.

 

[Markham VIP]

Anythingis possible TOareaFan ... but at some point one needs to reach there own conclusion regarding this. From what I've seen regarding other decisions in the past I think Markham's mayor will be very eager to get a casino.

You're absolutely correct that the same issues should apply to Toronto and Markham. But it's easier to get away with it in Markham isn't it ? There is so much less media attention that hardly anyone will bring up the potential negatives associated with a casino ... or even admit negatives exist !

I'm sure MarkhamVIP and the mayor are counting on that, and it will likely be the case.

Of course having said that some counselors will likely voice concerns but all of this will be kept very quiet. Just like the decision to build an Arena. You can really get away with anything in the suburbs, generally this works out for the better btw. In Toronto, a 0.00001% tax hike will be the top story in each paper. During this time some suburbs could be raising taxes 3/4% and you won't here anything. That's a really bad example btw.

Yes the arena was kept a secret. In fact, last November, after the media broke the news of the plans, Markham Councillors could not speak about the issue because they had signed confidentiality agreements (i.e. gag orders).
The following are references that mention the "gag order" on Markham Municiple Councillors:
http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/nhl/article/1091092--markham-explores-nhl-size-arena
http://www.citytv.com/toronto/cityn...9--markham-group-considers-building-nhl-arena
http://www.yorkregion.com/news/article/1011709--nhl-in-markham

Kind of makes you wonder....what else was included in that gag order?.....just the arena?

York Region Economist and Sun recently reported that the Mayor and Rudy Bratty had a "secret meeting" with over 40 developers. After the Economist and Sun broke the story, the Mayor's office, as well as Rudy Bratty's office would not comment. When councillors were asked about it, they stated that they did not know what was discussed as they were not invited to the meeting.

Everyone in Markham knows that Downtown Markham/Markham Centre has been in the plans since the 90's. Everyone in Markham knows that it is going to be something special. When the annoucement is made, the people of Markham will be proud of their new casino, and will see it as an anchor for the economic development that is planned for the area. Lastly, Downtown Markham in in the southern region of Markham, as such, there is a large chinese/asian community in that area. Without sounding rude...chinese people love to gamble. I hardly doubt that there will be protests along Enterprise Blvd.

 

[jje1000]

I really hope Toronto does get something from the MGM Hotel Group (who also owns Aria, Bellagio, and others).

First of all, if a casino is built, nothing forces anyone to go there. People who do not like to gamble will not need to. People who like to gamble will travel out of the city anyway to gamble, so having them spend money in Toronto is better than having them leave and spend money elsewhere.

You cannot compare a 2 - 6 billion dollar casino/resort complex to Rama, or anything else in Canada for that matter.

Also, yes, Rama isn't anything special... But its ISOLATED! A resort/casino in Downtown Toronto will be beautiful!

MGM wants to build something worth $2-6 Billion.

The Bellagio, one of the nicest hotels in Vegas, had a construction cost of 1.6 billion dollars.

The Wynn costed 2.7 Billion.

The Cosmopolitan was 3.9 Billion.

These are three of the NICEST hotels in Vegas. Something between 2 and 6 Billion is HUGE!!

You can't even compare this to the MGM in Detroit, which had a construction cost of 800 Million.


Also, the MGM in Detroit is by far the nicest hotel in the city.

Only 10% of the complex would be for gaming. This means we would be getting a Huge complex. Hotel, shops, convention, ect. Anyone who says it won't be good for tourism is wrong.

Building a casino/hotel will in no way hurt our city! People are scared of change, but such a project is beneficial!

I, for one, do not gamble. But such a complex brings much more! Shows, entertainment, dining. It's all good stuff!

I'll be hoping for a Aria/Wynn/Cosmopolitan level of style in any casino proposed.

Again, location matters. This will be a complex that will be competing directly with the downtown theatres, hotels and restaurants- too close, and there's a risk that the casino will deaden the area around it.

Another point that must be raised is that MGM is a for-profit company located in America. At least a portion of the money generated will be leaving Canada instead of being invested in paying off the deficit or being invested in services.

 

[taal]

Yes the arena was kept a secret. In fact, last November, after the media broke the news of the plans, Markham Councillors could not speak about the issue because they had signed confidentiality agreements (i.e. gag orders).
The following are references that mention the "gag order" on Markham Municiple Councillors:
http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/nhl/article/1091092--markham-explores-nhl-size-arena
http://www.citytv.com/toronto/cityn...9--markham-group-considers-building-nhl-arena
http://www.yorkregion.com/news/article/1011709--nhl-in-markham

Kind of makes you wonder....what else was included in that gag order?.....just the arena?

York Region Economist and Sun recently reported that the Mayor and Rudy Bratty had a "secret meeting" with over 40 developers. After the Economist and Sun broke the story, the Mayor's office, as well as Rudy Bratty's office would not comment. When councillors were asked about it, they stated that they did not know what was discussed as they were not invited to the meeting.

Everyone in Markham knows that Downtown Markham/Markham Centre has been in the plans since the 90's. Everyone in Markham knows that it is going to be something special. When the annoucement is made, the people of Markham will be proud of their new casino, and will see it as an anchor for the economic development that is planned for the area. Lastly, Downtown Markham in in the southern region of Markham, as such, there is a large chinese/asian community in that area. Without sounding rude...chinese people love to gamble. I hardly doubt that there will be protests along Enterprise Blvd.

I'm curious, what's your interest in this, are you a Markham citizen ? Or more involved then just that in downtown Markham ?

 

[Markham VIP]

I'm curious, what's your interest in this, are you a Markham citizen ? Or more involved then just that in downtown Markham ?

I was born in Markham and have lived here my entire life. I also currently work in Markham as well.
Last year, I took my life savings and purchased my first home in Downtown Markham.
However, just because my opinions are biased, please do not disregard them as not being possible.
Naturally, due to my investment into Downtown Markham, I have been trying to stay current with all issues relating to the development.
I am new to this forum and enjoy sharing my thoughts will all of you.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I was born in Markham and have lived here my entire life. I also currently work in Markham as well.
Last year, I took my life savings and purchased my first home in Downtown Markham.
However, just because my opinions are biased, please do not disregard them as not being possible.
Naturally, due to my investment into Downtown Markham, I have been trying to stay current with all issues relating to the development.
I am new to this forum and enjoy sharing my thoughts will all of you.

Welcome and I hope you stay around. Can be bumpy at times but very informative.

 

[Markham VIP]

Dalton McGuinty has stated over and over again that he will not force a casino on Toronto. Everytime he is questioned about the casino, he takes the position that it is up to the municipalities to decided whether they want it.

"First of all, do they want to give a casino due consideration? If they do, then they're going to have to find a way to appropriately consult the people who live in that community. And I'll leave it up to them to make a determination as to what appropriate consultation might be. But to make it clear once again, if a community doesn't want a casino, we're not about to impose a casino on that community." (Premier Dalton McGuinty)
http://chch.com/index.php/home/item/7677-premier-questioned-on-casino

Even today, when the Premier was questioned about MGM's interest in a Toronto casino, what did the Premier say? ""We are not going to put a casino into a community that doesn't want one".
http://www.680news.com/news/local/a...no-support-for-bunny-ranch-brothel-in-toronto

If the Province really wanted a casino to be built in the City of Toronto, why aren't they doing a better job promoting the idea? Why are they not committing to the idea that the City of Toronto is their choice?
Do you really think that the OLG does not know where they want the casino to be built? Do you really think that the OLG is going to leave it up to the City to decide?

In my opinion, the Province already knows that Downtown Markham is at the top of their list. The Toronto media are the ones who are focusing on the City getting the casino, not the Province.

 

[Electrify]

CHERRY STREET CASINO!!!

The thing practically sells itself!

 

[taal]

MarkhamVip ... here's my issue. Who's to say we don't want downtown ?

Where are you getting that from, the counselors in the area ? I'm sure not all counselors in Markham are pro Casino either.

The referendum held in Toronto was done ages ago ... as pointed out by another member Markham also shot down a casino back in the day too.

 

[Markham VIP]

MarkhamVip ... here's my issue. Who's to say we don't want downtown ?

Where are you getting that from, the counselors in the area ? I'm sure not all counselors in Markham are pro Casino either.

The referendum held in Toronto was done ages ago ... as pointed out by another member Markham also shot down a casino back in the day too.

That is true...back in the late 90's, when Downtown Markham was still a dream, Markham may have shot down the idea of a charity casino.
However, now that the Downtown Markham project has picked up steam, no one can doubt the economic benefit it will bring to the area. They are trying to bring high-end retailers and restaurants to the area...doesn't it make sense to have a casino.

Markham is a lot different today than it was in the 90's.....and it's goals have changed as well.

Another very important question for the people of Markham is: Will a casino increase property value?
As per the 2006 census.....
In Toronto, 54.4% of people owned their homes.
In York Region, 88.3% of people owned their homes.
In Markham, that number is 90%+

For people in the Town of Markham, property value is the number one issue.
If the Mayor and Council can convince the people of the Markham that a casino will increase property value (which wont be hard to do), then the people of Markham will be all for it.

 

[taal]

That is true...back in the late 90's, when Downtown Markham was still a dream, Markham may have shot down the idea of a charity casino.
However, now that the Downtown Markham project has picked up steam, no one can doubt the economic benefit it will bring to the area. They are trying to bring high-end retailers and restaurants to the area...doesn't it make sense to have a casino.

Markham is a lot different today than it was in the 90's.....and it's goals have changed as well.

Another very important question for the people of Markham is: Will a casino increase property value?
As per the 2006 census.....
In Toronto, 54.4% of people owned their homes.
In York Region, 88.3% of people owned their homes.
In Markham, that number is 90%+

For people in the Town of Markham, property value is the number one issue.
If the Mayor and Council can convince the people of the Markham that a casino will increase property value (which wont be hard to do), then the people of Markham will be all for it.

Right, I wasn't arguing a casino wouldn't be good for Markham at all (though I think you're brushing off the scoia-economic impacts, there are negatives here ...) ! I was just saying you too preternaturally thinking Toronto does not want it downtown. You mentioned this, because it is Toronto, everything makes the media. That's not the case in Markham, I can all but guarantee you at least one councilor in Markham will not approve of a casino, now it probably won't make a difference.

That stat you quoted about renting is the case for every city in North America and means very little. While Toronto residents don't own as much property downtown, the city and many other organizations do, so if a casino were to increase values in Markham the same would take place in Toronto, which directly effects the citizens as it effects how much the city can take in.


Lastly, a casino in Markham can potentially help the property values, its not going to help the values in the rest of Markham (which is large), so a blanket statement that it benefits everyone is a bit silly just because many own.