OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[dt_toronto_geek]

The Bay bunker at Yonge & Bloor would make a for a good casino location though the main floor would be best converted to retail/restaurants then the casino in the 3 or 4 large floors above. It's downtown, there's a hotel above and several others nearby, the subway lines are there and it would help liven that area up again at night.

 

[sixrings]

I know they don't want itbut Vaughan works great.It might actually helpthe ttc achieve its ridership numbers. Give them Woodbine racetrack as well.

 

[Torontovibe]

"Yeah, man, but Ontario Place ain't no neighbourhood. It's sealed away from any neighbourhood by the Lakeshore, by the CNE by the Gardiner, by Coronation Park, bla bla bla..."

Well no, Ontario Place is not a residential neighbourhood (I should have said district) and it shouldn't be one. We have lots of other spaces for residential. Ontario Place should remain a tourist attraction/amusement park that can be used by the whole family and not geared to gamblers. A waterfront location is too valuable to be wasted on a casino. I have yet to see any casino in North America that actually improved the area it's in and created a lively urban environment.

 

[TOareaFan]

Well no, Ontario Place is not a residential neighbourhood (I should have said district) and it shouldn't be one. We have lots of other spaces for residential. Ontario Place should remain a tourist attraction/amusement park that can be used by the whole family and not geared to gamblers. A waterfront location is too valuable to be wasted on a casino. I have yet to see any casino in North America that actually improved the area it's in and created a lively urban environment.

I am confused......on the one hand OP is not to be a residential neighbourhood and should remain a tourist attration.......on the other hand a casino should not be there because it would not create a lively urban environment?

The reason that OP is even being considered is that families stopped going there...and it would appear the Province does not have the money to create the sort of tourist attraction that would bring them back.

I don't care about casinos.....but my guess is that, if the casino is not there, it will sit in its current form, largely unused, for a great many years (that may be fine...it is just an observation).

 

[canmark]

Toronto Star: What can Toronto learn from Montreal’s downtown casino?

In a 1992 municipal vote, councillors resoundingly voted in a casino.

One year later, the building’s glass doors opened on Ile de Notre Dame, an island constructed for Expo ’67. It’s been a vache d’argent — cash cow — ever since, winning the Quebec government about $200 million per year, $4.1 billion since the first cards were dealt. Unlike a cut of the revenue expected for Toronto if the casino comes to town, the City of Montreal gets no portion of those profits.

The casino’s early success was thanks not to beginner’s luck but to Montreal’s insatiable gambling appetite. More than 12,000 people regularly flocked to the casino per day, far surpassing the anticipated 5,000. The enthusiasm persisted, and three years (and 10 million visits) later, Loto-Quebec, the government agency that operates the province’s four casinos, expanded its Montreal location into a nearby building.

Soon after, security guards stopped kicking out gamblers at the 5 a.m. closing time; in 1997 the government began hosting a 24-7 party.

* * *

Among the major criticisms of the Montreal casino is that just 10 per cent of the visits come from outside the province — meaning the majority of the money brought in is from Quebecers.

 

[Markham VIP]

Casino will be built in downtown markham

Ontario Finance Minister Dwight Duncan said the mayors of Mississauga, Markham and Hamilton have all made public statements in favour of a casino in their community. Others have expressed interest, but Mr. Duncan is unwilling to name names.http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...suitors-if-spurned-by-toronto/article2393725/

There are several other municipalities in the GTA who are perfect suitors for a new casino, and at the top of that list is Markham. The Town of Markham has been building a downtown for itself east of Warden and 407. The area under development is a large piece of prime real-estate, right in the geographic heart of the GTA. The Downtown Markham project has been in the planning stages for about 20 years now. About 5 years ago they started construction on the main residential area which is almost completed. They have recently started construction on a new VIP Cineplex and retail complex, as well as facilities for the Pan Am Games. Last November, the media reported that there were plans to build a new NHL-sized arena there for concerts and shows. The main developer and owner of the land, The Remington Group, has plans to make Downtown Markham a world-class area full of high-end retail shops, restaurants, and entertainment. It will be the centre of economic development in Markham, will be environmentally sustainable, and will make efficient use of space. Downtown Markham is currently the largest LEED-certified, mixed-use development in North America.

Downtown Markham is the perfect place for the province to build a casino. I've lived in Markham my entire life and every weekend I see buses and buses full of people leaving Pacific Mall going to Rama or Niagara. A casino in Downtown Markham would fit perfectly with the new concert arena, new VIP cineplex theatre, new world-class restaurants and high-end retail shops that are all planned for the area. It will create a sort of entertainment complex with a business model like Vegas....people will go to dinner, see a concert/show/movie, go to the casino, and do some shopping.

The Province seems to not really care whether Toronto wants the casino or not. They have made it clear that they still intend to proceed. Why is that? Because in my opinion, they already know that the Town of Markham is at the top of their list. What better place to put a casino than in the geographic centre of the GTA?

The CEO of OLG has said that they want the new casino to be a world-class facility, be close to the people, and be in-line with the development plans of a municipality. Check out this interview with Steve Paikin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVNWPToM41U
(Notice in the beginning how he corrects Paikin by saying GTA casino....not Toronto casino.

 

[taal]

I think Mississauga is a better choice.

I guess it would be fair for Markham though Seeing how they lost the bid for the large water venue for the pan am games to Uoft Scarborough ... that one hurt and they're still raging about it.

 

[Markham VIP]

I think Mississauga is a better choice.

I guess it would be fair for Markham though Seeing how they lost the bid for the large water venue for the pan am games to Uoft Scarborough ... that one hurt and they're still raging about it.

Mississauga would not be a good choice because the people in the west-end of the GTA already have a gaming facility at Woodbine.
Many people believe that they should just add the casino to Woodbine, however, if you watch the Steve Paikin interview with the CEO of OLG, the CEO says that they believe the GTA can support another gaming facility in addition to the one at Woodbine.
Why would you put two gaming facilities in the west-end? The answer is you wouldn't. You would choose the geographic centre of the GTA if you could.

In regards to the large water venue....
The Town of Markham has plans to create an athletic academy at the eastern part of the Downtown Markham development near Kennedy Road. The academy will bring people from all over the world to the GTA. If what you say is correct about Markham losing that large water venue, then their rage is justified. When you are trying to create a world-class athletic academy, the more venues you have the better.

 

[TOareaFan]

Mississauga would not be a good choice because the people in the west-end of the GTA already have a gaming facility at Woodbine.
Many people believe that they should just add the casino to Woodbine, however, if you watch the Steve Paikin interview with the CEO of OLG, the CEO says that they believe the GTA can support another gaming facility in addition to the one at Woodbine.
Why would you put two gaming facilities in the west-end? The answer is you wouldn't. You would choose the geographic centre of the GTA if you could.

In regards to the large water venue....
The Town of Markham has plans to create an athletic academy at the eastern part of the Downtown Markham development near Kennedy Road. The academy will bring people from all over the world to the GTA. If what you say is correct about Markham losing that large water venue, then their rage is justified. When you are trying to create a world-class athletic academy, the more venues you have the better.

Bit off topic but I am intrigued by the idea of Markham as the geographic centre of the GTA.....is that true? I have no "research" but I would have guessed the geographic Centre would have been nearer, say, 407 and somewhere between 400 and 427

I alwaysthink of Markham as east of centre.....btw, I think the east end has a gambling facility too....I heard a radio ad for the slots at Ajax Downs

 

[taal]

Mississauga would not be a good choice because the people in the west-end of the GTA already have a gaming facility at Woodbine.
Many people believe that they should just add the casino to Woodbine, however, if you watch the Steve Paikin interview with the CEO of OLG, the CEO says that they believe the GTA can support another gaming facility in addition to the one at Woodbine.
Why would you put two gaming facilities in the west-end? The answer is you wouldn't. You would choose the geographic centre of the GTA if you could.

In regards to the large water venue....
The Town of Markham has plans to create an athletic academy at the eastern part of the Downtown Markham development near Kennedy Road. The academy will bring people from all over the world to the GTA. If what you say is correct about Markham losing that large water venue, then their rage is justified. When you are trying to create a world-class athletic academy, the more venues you have the better.

I'm not sure why there rage is justified, Markham doesn't deserve it anymore then the other venues that were in the bidding. UofT Scarborough had a very large program already in the area; Clearly a lot more then existed in Markham at the time.


Secondly, what does the geographic center have to do this with this, the center population wise (factoring in future growth) is a lot more important, and I'm willing to wager the center (population wise) is in the north / west quadrant of Toronto.


So having said that, I'll retract my comment, as you make a good point, and pick VCC as the ideally location (even though yes it is somewhat closer to woodbine).

 

[GKW]

 

[Markham VIP]

Bit off topic but I am intrigued by the idea of Markham as the geographic centre of the GTA.....is that true? I have no "research" but I would have guessed the geographic Centre would have been nearer, say, 407 and somewhere between 400 and 427

I alwaysthink of Markham as east of centre.....btw, I think the east end has a gambling facility too....I heard a radio ad for the slots at Ajax Downs

When I say geographic centre....that is a term that i use loosely.
Markham is....more or less....the centre, but the same argument could maybe be made for Vaughn or Richmond Hill.
Just google map of GTA and you will see what i mean.

Regardless of whether or not it is the centre....the point is that Peel Region is not the most strategic place for a casino. There are over a million people in York Region that are currently being underserviced in terms of gaming facilities.
Peel Region already has Woodbine, and you are correct, Durham Region has OLG Slots too.
But what about York Region with a population of over 1 mil?

 

[Markham VIP]

I'm not sure why there rage is justified, Markham doesn't deserve it anymore then the other venues that were in the bidding. UofT Scarborough had a very large program already in the area; Clearly a lot more then existed in Markham at the time.


Secondly, what does the geographic center have to do this with this, the center population wise (factoring in future growth) is a lot more important, and I'm willing to wager the center (population wise) is in the north / west quadrant of Toronto.


So having said that, I'll retract my comment, as you make a good point, and pick VCC as the ideally location (even though yes it is somewhat closer to woodbine).

Can you say for sure what the population will be in 2030?
The growth rate of municipalities has fluctuated throughout the years.
Markham, and York Region as a whole, will continue to grow well into the future.
Here is a link for municipality population rates (Go to page 8):
http://www.toronto.ca/demographics/pdf/2011-census-backgrounder.pdf

In regards to the UofT getting the venue...I don't really know too much about that bid. But I agree with you....if I U of T already has a strong program then yes they probably deserved it more.....

 

[TOareaFan]

When I say geographic centre....that is a term that i use loosely.
Markham is....more or less....the centre, but the same argument could maybe be made for Vaughn or Richmond Hill.
Just google map of GTA and you will see what i mean.

Regardless of whether or not it is the centre....the point is that Peel Region is not the most strategic place for a casino. There are over a million people in York Region that are currently being underserviced in terms of gaming facilities.
Peel Region already has Woodbine, and you are correct, Durham Region has OLG Slots too.
But what about York Region with a population of over 1 mil?

Living in peel, I will share 2 observations:

1. Woodbine is not in Peel;
2. That said, I don't sense any groundswell of opinion from residents or politicians expressing a desire that the OLG locate their new casino in Peel.

I would think, however, that the OLG will want to locate near a place where people are or can get to easily.

 

[Markham VIP]

Living in peel, I will share 2 observations:

1. Woodbine is not in Peel;
2. That said, I don't sense any groundswell of opinion from residents or politicians expressing a desire that the OLG locate their new casino in Peel.

I would think, however, that the OLG will want to locate near a place where people are or can get to easily.

1. You are correct....Woodbine is not in Peel....it is Etobicoke. However, it is very accessible to people in Peel Region.
2. Mississauga has expressed interest: Ontario Finance Minister Dwight Duncan said the mayors of Mississauga, Markham and Hamilton have all made public statements in favour of a casino in their community. Others have expressed interest, but Mr. Duncan is unwilling to name names.http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2393725/


I agree with your final point.....they want the place to be easily accessible by everyone in the GTA.
That is why you put it in a strategic location which is more or less the centre, the new ambitious Downtown Markham development that is located in between the following roads:
South - 407 Hwy - a 400-class highway
North - Hwy 7 - which goes right across the GTA
West - Warden Avenue
East - Kennedy Road

In addition, the Unionville Go Station is in Downtown Markham.
And York Region Transit has their new VIVA bus service that has a rapid transit strategy for Downtown Markham to get people from one end of the development to the other on buses that come every few minutes.

There are over 1 million people in York Region who do not have a gaming facility. A lot of those people in York Region are middle-upper class and own their homes. Were talking Vaughan, Markham, Richmond Hill, Aurora, Newmarket, Stouville.
York Region will continue to grow well into the future......