OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[James]

I have been Detroit all week. The 3 casinos they have are PACKED even on Monday's and Tuesday nights at at midnight! Not to sound prejudice or anything but the high roller area's were packed with Asians. With the size of Toronto's Asian population the Toronto Casino would need a large high roller area!!

I was also in Detroit 2 weeks ago and although I didn't go into any of the casinos, I was quite surprised that there are not one, not two, but three casinos all in close proximity of each other (Greektown, MGM Grand and MotorCity). For a town whose better economic times are decades gone, one has to ponder how these casinos are still packed to this day. The downtown Detroit area is pretty dead even outside of the small business sector that exists. For every business you see in operation, there is probably another one next to it that is boarded up. Like liquor and cigarettes, even in dire times, one can count on casinos for revenue. All that said, I couldn't care less for casinos. If Toronto wants to bring the casino to the people who frequent them, I say put it in Markham and call it a day.

 

[joey_122@hotmail.com]

Interestng article on the top biggest casinos

It would be amazing to get something like the wynn a luxury casino here on the waterfront how can one say no!!!

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/08/0825_worlds_largest_casinos/11.htm

 

[gabe]

I was also in Detroit 2 weeks ago and although I didn't go into any of the casinos, I was quite surprised that there are not one, not two, but three casinos all in close proximity of each other (Greektown, MGM Grand and MotorCity). For a town whose better economic times are decades gone, one has to ponder how these casinos are still packed to this day. The downtown Detroit area is pretty dead even outside of the small business sector that exists. For every business you see in operation, there is probably another one next to it that is boarded up. Like liquor and cigarettes, even in dire times, one can count on casinos for revenue. All that said, I couldn't care less for casinos. If Toronto wants to bring the casino to the people who frequent them, I say put it in Markham and call it a day.

Four casinos in the area if counting Caesars in Windsor. The casinos in Detroit aren't bringing people "downtown" That's why the downtown is a dead zone. People can stay for an entire weekend at one of the casino complexes without having set foot on the streets of Detroit. Chatting with the bartenders at the pubs downtown Detroit they all said the pretty much the same thing. Casinos haven't increased business at all, if anything the casinos decreased it, since the bars in the casinos allow smoking. The only thing keeping the few restaurants and bars left downtown Detroit are the sporting events and conventions at Cobo hall.

 

[Markham VIP]

I was also in Detroit 2 weeks ago and although I didn't go into any of the casinos, I was quite surprised that there are not one, not two, but three casinos all in close proximity of each other (Greektown, MGM Grand and MotorCity). For a town whose better economic times are decades gone, one has to ponder how these casinos are still packed to this day. The downtown Detroit area is pretty dead even outside of the small business sector that exists. For every business you see in operation, there is probably another one next to it that is boarded up. Like liquor and cigarettes, even in dire times, one can count on casinos for revenue. All that said, I couldn't care less for casinos. If Toronto wants to bring the casino to the people who frequent them, I say put it in Markham and call it a day.

I couldn't agree with you more.....
That is what I have been saying, putting a casino somewhere that is already developed will be disasterous for the surrounding businesses. The monster resort and casino will srive to keep people within the walls of the resort and will encourage them to only spend their money there. There is only so much tourist dollar to go around, and dropping a mega resort casino into downtown toronto will suck all that tourist money away.

However, Markham is another story. The area in Downtown Markham is not yet developed. For the most part it's just a large piece of flat land (in the geographic heart of the GTA). So we can build all the structures and roads, but how do we get people and business there? How do we attract them to Markham and get them to stay? We don't want a monster casino resort....just a casino.

The casino would hurt business development in Toronto.....but it sure would help it in Markham.

 

[Markham VIP]

Anyone remember the video game SIM CITY?
Remember when the game would reward you by giving you an amusement park or a casino to place in your city. How many of you would place that casino in a part of the city that was already developed? That would have been retarded. The strategy used was to put the casino somewhere that you WANTED TO develop, and the casino would accelerate the growth of that area.

The things you learn from video games........

 

[Johnny Au]

Anyone remember the video game SIM CITY?
Remember when the game would reward you by giving you an amusement park or a casino to place in your city. How many of you would place that casino in a part of the city that was already developed? That would have been retarded. The strategy used was to put the casino somewhere that you WANTED TO develop, and the casino would accelerate the growth of that area.

The things you learn from video games........

Actually, in SimCity 4, I believe that if your city is deep in debt, you are given an opportunity to build a casino (as well as a maximum security prison, a nuclear waste dump, and a missile silo). When you plop the casino, you gain quick revenue and revitalize the commercial zones. However, crime rates around the casino increase and your mayoral approval would drop.

 

[Dandy Horse]

why shouldn't Ontario Place and the CNE grounds be turned into walkable sustainable communities? why settle for anything less, ever?

 

[TOareaFan]

why shouldn't Ontario Place and the CNE grounds be turned into walkable sustainable communities? why settle for anything less, ever?

Not directed at you but your post reminded me of something I have been meaning to ask.

I read a lot about people not liking the wide open somewhat barren space at the ex. All that surface parking seems to be a particular sore point. Fair enough but a good portion of that openness gets used up 3 weeks a year for the fair itself. So, the question is, are those in flavour of developing the Ex grounds (either for a casino or a sustainable/walk able/urban neighborhood) advocating for the end of the Ex?

 

[Torontovibe]

I think many people wanted the parking put under ground and open parkland on top. (well, besides the hotel) Why can't you have a nice compromise? Nobody was asking for condos at the CNE. Liberty Village and Fort York are close enough.

 

[TOareaFan]

I think many people wanted the parking put under ground and open parkland on top. (well, besides the hotel) Why can't you have a nice compromise?

My question was an honest one and not at all leaning one way or another. Just wondering how people see the Ex (the fair not the grounds) fitting in.

 

[GenerationW]

Kevin D. Williamson, from his March 2012 National Review article “Play to Extinction: Gambling is a racket, not a tool of economic developmentâ€:

They had better think twice about what they are getting themselves into. The issue of gambling is not a question of rah-rah libertarians vs. no-no bluestockings: Nobody who looks seriously at the nexus between politics and gambling could possibly conclude that what is happening in Atlantic City, in Pennsylvania, on the Indian reservations, or in the lottery racket represents the operation of the free market. It is a cartel in most cases and a monopoly in many, all with the blessings of the state. The arrangement, in the words of one scholarly study of casinos in Montana, leaves government “a dependent partner in the business of gambling.†If gambling advocates were simply making a principled case that putative adults have the right to entertain themselves with their own money according to their own tastes (or, let’s be serious, lack thereof), then their argument would be persuasive. But what is in fact happening is that politicians smell money, and so government itself is getting into the game, taking gambling to be a fruitful model of economic development.

[Casino gambling] has done little to revitalize the rest of Atlantic City and its business community. Atlantic City has been described as two cities. One is the casinos, and the other is a city of boarded-up buildings with a unemployed minority work force. Gambling has largely failed in achieving the objectives of job growth for local residents and city-wide economic development.

 

[coolcanadian]

It would be amazing to get something like the wynn a luxury casino here on the waterfront how can one say no!!!

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/08/0825_worlds_largest_casinos/11.htm

With this project, we very well will see something like that. Everyone STOP comparing to Detroit. This is an entertainment resort complex, MGM has already said they do not want to just make a casino. Only 5% of this is gaming. No matter what we are getting a casino in the GTA, and that is not going to ruin the area. If you put it downtown, attach awesome resorts, restaurants, shops, features, shows, convention space and more this will be an amazing project.

 

[AKS]

Not directed at you but your post reminded me of something I have been meaning to ask.

I read a lot about people not liking the wide open somewhat barren space at the ex. All that surface parking seems to be a particular sore point. Fair enough but a good portion of that openness gets used up 3 weeks a year for the fair itself. So, the question is, are those in flavour of developing the Ex grounds (either for a casino or a sustainable/walk able/urban neighborhood) advocating for the end of the Ex?

Well, the question would be. Does the whole fair ground have to be outdoors? Can part of it be indoors and part outdoors? So even if it's raining, it's still useable? Or maybe even available all year round. If it's not feasible for all year round. Maybe the building can be indoors so that it can be used as an exhibition when it's not used as an indoor fair. I've even seen a roller coaster inside a mall. I think it was in HK or somewhere but at the top level, they had a games area with roller coasters and stands, etc. I know in places like Tokyo, there's an area inside the mall for video games, basketball throwing games, etc. Similar to what's between ACC and Union station but bigger and more variety. In HK, Taikoo City Mall they even have indoor ice rink a long with all the entertainment.

What would be a great family outing is to have an indoors water playground that can be used all year round that they can take their children to and it will be close by.

 

[coolcanadian]

Well, the question would be. Does the whole fair ground have to be outdoors? Can part of it be indoors and part outdoors? So even if it's raining, it's still useable? Or maybe even available all year round. If it's not feasible for all year round. Maybe the building can be indoors so that it can be used as an exhibition when it's not used as an indoor fair. I've even seen a roller coaster inside a mall. I think it was in HK or somewhere but at the top level, they had a games area with roller coasters and stands, etc. I know in places like Tokyo, there's an area inside the mall for video games, basketball throwing games, etc. Similar to what's between ACC and Union station but bigger and more variety. In HK, Taikoo City Mall they even have indoor ice rink a long with all the entertainment.

Why don't you use a Canadian example? The largest indoor amusement park in the world: Galaxyland at West Edmonton Mall!

However, I would not want to see this at The Ex in a million years. Yes, it is cool, but the Ex is really a special place. Ontario Place needs to be redeveloped, but let's keep the Ex annual fair. It does well anyway. It can be improved, but not put indoors.m

 

[TOareaFan]

Well, the question would be. Does the whole fair ground have to be outdoors? Can part of it be indoors and part outdoors? So even if it's raining, it's still useable? Or maybe even available all year round. If it's not feasible for all year round. Maybe the building can be indoors so that it can be used as an exhibition when it's not used as an indoor fair. I've even seen a roller coaster inside a mall. I think it was in HK or somewhere but at the top level, they had a games area with roller coasters and stands, etc. I know in places like Tokyo, there's an area inside the mall for video games, basketball throwing games, etc. Similar to what's between ACC and Union station but bigger and more variety. In HK, Taikoo City Mall they even have indoor ice rink a long with all the entertainment.

What would be a great family outing is to have an indoors water playground that can be used all year round that they can take their children to and it will be close by.

The CNE is already an indoor/outdoor event. During that 3 week period the entire Ex grounds and vast majority of the Ex buildings are in use for the CNE, or CNE related, activities.

The CNE is by nature a limited time event. Any largish scale development on the Ex grounds is gonna impair their ability to put on their annual 3 week event or, the new "year round" uses will have to shut downfor 3 weeks a year.

I am not sure what to think when I read comments about developing the Ex grounds. I wonder if the people suggesting it realize they are,essentially, advocating for the end of the CNE or if, even, at this point in Toronto's development if they care.