OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[Lenser]

Why would Wonderland want to move? Why would the Science Centre want to move either? I see zero incentive for either case. The associated costs would be astronomical. Both places are already well located with plenty of parking. If there's one thing that centre core Toronto is losing, it's available space. Parking spaces are already being gobbled up, thanks to soaring land values and developer pressures. I just don't see it. In any case, a giant casino complex placed anywhere in the GTA is going to require some hefty transportation infrastructure to support it and enable it to bode well in the future.

 

[taal]

You'd imagine a stadium would have even more requirements transit infrastructure wise, so Markham seems like it would work just based on that, seeing how a stadium is essentially going ahead. The Markham location to me seems more accessible then MCC but less then VCC.

 

[Torontovibe]

Torontovibe: All well and good - except, why would you assume your nimbyism wouldn't be echoed in other locations? I mean, you're clear that you don't want a new casino at Ontario Place. But what's your idea of "another location," precisely?

I'm no fan of putting the casino in the Portlands (I have my own reasons and I won't go into them here). My hope is that it go to Ontario Place, or Markham. Ontario Place, for all its historical charms, is clapped-out and sorely in need of work. If ever a property has been neglected, has taken many years to fall by the wayside, it's Ontario Place. You say you know many people who don't want a casino complex put there, and I believe you. But surely no one is happy with OP as it stands these days. It's sad and dilapidated and, relatively speaking, a ghostly, empty place. It needs some serious work and money sunk into it to turn it around. I can't think of a better way to spruce it up. With money being as tight in the city as it is and the province on an austerity footing, OP is going to have to attract some new business ventures to help it return to a more self-sufficient economic health.

Where did I suggest that I was happy with Ontario Place, the way it is now? It was so much better when it opened but the governments of Ontario have done nothing to keep it up. In fact, they made changes to bring it down but even if Ontario Place closed down as a tourist attraction, it still is a great park, due to its beautiful setting on the lake. If worse comes to worst, (which I see no reason, for that to happen) I still would prefer that it remain as park land. Ideally, I'd like to see Ontario Place restored to its former glory or better. Yep, it takes a few bucks but I think this city is worth investing in.

I really don't care where Dalton puts his casino, just don't put it in an area that is already a beautiful setting or a lively, animated area like The Beaches or Yorkville. (obviously) If he wants to put it in a dead, undeveloped area like Woodbine Live, I'm cool with that. We need more attractions in the outside areas.

And YES, there are lots of people who see the value in Ontario Place and want to protect it, just like me. Check out the groups on facebook and all the activity on Twitter. People are getting mobilized to fight this. Too many of you younger guys seem to fail to see the value in anything but you know the cost of everything. All it takes is a few flashy baubles and you'd sell out your own city, no questions asked. It's pretty sad.

 

[taal]

Protect Ontario place, I agree ! But what about the exhibition grounds, there's a lot of room / above ground parking that could be redeveloped !

 

[sixrings]

Why would Wonderland want to move? Why would the Science Centre want to move either? I see zero incentive for either case. The associated costs would be astronomical. Both places are already well located with plenty of parking. If there's one thing that centre core Toronto is losing, it's available space. Parking spaces are already being gobbled up, thanks to soaring land values and developer pressures. I just don't see it. In any case, a giant casino complex placed anywhere in the GTA is going to require some hefty transportation infrastructure to support it and enable it to bode well in the future.

id have to look it up but there was artcle and news a few years ago about wonderland selling its land and buying further north to turn a profit with the housing boom.... if that was once a idea i cant see how it would change... ,,,,
as for the science centre - there are countless buildings on the CNE grounds that could faciliate it. It just doesnt make sense to me that these buildings sit empty waiting for boat shows housing shows or the EX. besides all the other art gallerys and museums are downtown like they should be. about the transportation issue... the DRL is currently as drawn suppose to end at the ex.

 

[Torontovibe]

Ontario place is dead. Look at the amount of visitors from 1975 to 2012

Has there been any effort by the government to improve it? Even the floating pods were rust stained, so they really weren't trying to keep things up. Anyway, if Ontario Place was "dead", as you say, there was a very good reason for it. If Canada's Wonderland had let the park deteriorate and not invest in any new attractions, it too would be dead and everyone would be blaming the internet for it. The reality is, if you build a good attraction, constantly update it and offer good value, people will come. It's as simple as that.

 

[AKS]

I want to see Ontario Place become the amazing park Dalton McGuinty promised us. I'm holding him to his word. (and so should all of you)

Like many here have echoed, OP is a lost cause. It's been losing money every year and it's on tax payers dollars. They even spent over a million to fix the pipes for the water park and just after it was finished, the park closed down indefinitely. There is no indication when OP will ever reopen again. If it's going to sit bare and unattended, might as well make use of it and have someone occupy it so they will help pay taxes on the land. The condition would be to keep some of the places as it is for attraction such as the cinesphere, etc. And keep a portion of it open for children's water park so that families can enjoy it too. Also conditions such as having them help pay public transit to the location, have parking stacked instead of sprawled, build a classy entertainment area, etc. If there's going to be a casino built anywhere in the GTA, Toronto will probably end up paying for the brunt of the social issues created, so we might as well try to make money from it.

If there's any indication that there's a plan to save OP and make it a great family place, I would be against a casino and entertainment complex there. But nothing has surfaced for many years and it looks like there's no future plans for it either. The government is focusing on revitalizing the east end (west donlands, east bayfront, portlands, regent park, etc).

Has there been any effort by the government to improve it? Even the floating pods were rust stained, so they really weren't trying to keep things up. Anyway, if Ontario Place was "dead", as you say, there was a very good reason for it. If Canada's Wonderland had let the park deteriorate and not invest in any new attractions, it too would be dead and everyone would be blaming the internet for it. The reality is, if you build a good attraction, constantly update it and offer good value, people will come. It's as simple as that.

There's a big difference between Canada's Wonderland and Ontario Place. Wonderland is privately owned. OP is publicly owned. If OP was sold to someone as an amusement park, it would probably be run better.

 

[Lenser]

I really don't care where Dalton puts his casino, just don't put it in an area that is already a beautiful setting or a lively, animated area like The Beaches or Yorkville. (obviously) If he wants to put it in a dead, undeveloped area like Woodbine Live, I'm cool with that. We need more attractions in the outside areas.

And YES, there are lots of people who see the value in Ontario Place and want to protect it, just like me. Check out the groups on facebook and all the activity on Twitter. People are getting mobilized to fight this. Too many of you younger guys seem to fail to see the value in anything but you know the cost of everything. All it takes is a few flashy baubles and you'd sell out your own city, no questions asked. It's pretty sad.

You have no idea of my age. I'm amused by that. Please carry on.

You're also desperate to assume I'm somehow keen to sell out my city. Far from it. You see, you and your friends don't have a monopoly on passion for Toronto. Here's the thing; you can have roughly the same vivid passion, yet hold dear two completely different visions of the city and its destiny. Multiply that a thousandfold and you understand why we discuss this stuff all the time in here, why our many separate visions can and routinely do clash.

But you say OP is worth protecting and investing in; fine. Where's the money going to come from? Ontario is in a world of hurt lately. A lot of stuff is going to be cut back. I'm not overly pessimistic - rather, I feel I'm being realistic. As for the city itself, do you trust the Fordmayors to do right by Ontario Place? I don't. Man, I'd love to, I really would. Regardless of whatever happens to it, OP'S rejuvenation will doubtless require partnerships with the private sector to help finance it. The eras of government largess in Ontario are, for the time being anyway, over. We have an uphill battle on our hands and the province's problems are much larger than the issue of what to do with lovely, faded Ontario Place.

For the record, I don't care where the mega-casino goes either - I'd just prefer it not be in the Portlands or OP - I would prefer Markham, which seems to want it anyway. Keep it as far away from the city core as possible, thanks very much. But should it be located somewhere in the city nontheless, I imagine I'll live.

 

[Torontovibe]

Like many here have echoed, OP is a lost cause. It's been losing money every year and it's on tax payers dollars. They even spent over a million to fix the pipes for the water park and just after it was finished, the park closed down indefinitely. There is no indication when OP will ever reopen again. If it's going to sit bare and unattended, might as well make use of it and have someone occupy it so they will help pay taxes on the land. The condition would be to keep some of the places as it is for attraction such as the cinesphere, etc. And keep a portion of it open for children's water park so that families can enjoy it too. Also conditions such as having them help pay public transit to the location, have parking stacked instead of sprawled, build a classy entertainment area, etc. If there's going to be a casino built anywhere in the GTA, Toronto will probably end up paying for the brunt of the social issues created, so we might as well try to make money from it.

If there's any indication that there's a plan to save OP and make it a great family place, I would be against a casino and entertainment complex there. But nothing has surfaced for many years and it looks like there's no future plans for it either. The government is focusing on revitalizing the east end (west donlands, east bayfront, portlands, regent park, etc).



There's a big difference between Canada's Wonderland and Ontario Place. Wonderland is privately owned. OP is publicly owned. If OP was sold to someone as an amusement park, it would probably be run better.

They also spent MILLIONS renovating the Cinesphere with new seats, a new screen and projection upgrades, so are we supposed to just throw away all those millions of dollars? This is one of the rare times the government invested some serious money in OP and now nobody gets to use it? CRAZY! It just goes to prove, that the decision to close OP, was a hastily does one, with very little thought or planning.

We need to take some time to figure this out with a serious discussion and some detailed studies before we decide to just trash the place. When the fan boys get over their casino fetish and cooler heads prevail, I'm sure a plan can be developed to save Ontario Place from the barbarians.

And Lenser, when I was referring to age, I wasn't specifically referring to you. I was generalizing about the people who want to close Ontario Place and fail to see any value in it. From what I've seen on here and other internet sites, most of these people are under 30 years old and are quite quick to trash just about everything. They seem to put no value in anything that doesn't effect them directly. That's just my general opinion overall, from what I've observed.

 

[AKS]

This is one of the rare times the government invested some serious money in OP and now nobody gets to use it? CRAZY! It just goes to prove, that the decision to close OP, was a hastily does one, with very little thought or planning.

You've just described how our government works It's not the first time and this won't be the last either. Let's talk about that highway 407 and skydome we used to own. Then there's the bulldozing of those heritage houses for a highway...

 

[TOareaFan]

id have to look it up but there was artcle and news a few years ago about wonderland selling its land and buying further north to turn a profit with the housing boom.... if that was once a idea i cant see how it would change... ,,,,
as for the science centre - there are countless buildings on the CNE grounds that could faciliate it. It just doesnt make sense to me that these buildings sit empty waiting for boat shows housing shows or the EX. besides all the other art gallerys and museums are downtown like they should be. about the transportation issue... the DRL is currently as drawn suppose to end at the ex.

Those buildings on the Ex grounds don't sit around waiting for boat shows....they are actively managed to attract events. I guess we could just find permanent, year round, uses for them.....but before you do that you might want to consider that the Ex itself needs most of those buildings for 3 weeks a year.....so any year round/permanent use for these buildings probably means the end of the Ex itself.

I find the notion that the Ex is not becoming a year round destination a bit "80s". There is always stuff going on there...the Ex, The Royal, 40 odd hockey games, 25 or so soccer games, trade shows, concerts, jousting and chicken eating, weddings and charity galas and dancing and drinking.

 

[adma]

And Lenser, when I was referring to age, I wasn't specifically referring to you. I was generalizing about the people who want to close Ontario Place and fail to see any value in it. From what I've seen on here and other internet sites, most of these people are under 30 years old and are quite quick to trash just about everything. They seem to put no value in anything that doesn't effect them directly. That's just my general opinion overall, from what I've observed.

Actually, I find something of the inverse: a lot of those most motivated to save Ontario Place are the under-30s--i.e. those most responsive to the idea of 70s high-tech as "heritage" and therefore cherishable.

It probably has a lot to do with milieu said under-30s come from, i.e. if you're from an inner-city hipster/cultural-class realm, you're more likely to be hep to Ontario Place than if you're from the McMansion-tracted wilds of Brampton or Vaughan; and those kids who're indifferent are likely to have parents and family who're equally indifferent. So it's more of a cultural than a generational gap, I suspect.

 

[Lenser]

Adma, I agree.

Torontovibe: it's all good. I understand you want to save Ontario Place. It just doesn't look like it's going to be easy.

 

[spider]

I have never been to Las Vegas which is referred to here as the Gold Standard of what a Casino location should be, I visited it by Google streetview and was not able to envisage that main drag being replicated anywhere in downtown Toronto. Markham doesn't have a downtown so is not really a player here.

We are told that a waterfront location is a must, very little water evident on streetview.

We are told that a high order transit system must be in place, didn't even see a bus on streetview.

A casino is a gambling joint with a great PR department and I don't have a problem with that, think Bingo on steroids. I have a problem with turning the Ex and/or OP into a Bingo hall, they are just too good for that fate. I acknowledge that yes they have fallen on lean times lately but they would be lost forever for what?

MGM or whomever could be the catalyst that gets the Portlands out of the limbo they so richly deserve since no other private capital source will ever spend a penny there that is not contigent on others stepping up as well.

 

[sixrings]

the transit is behind the main strip if im correct in vegas