Officially Unofficial Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan Thread

[scarberiankhatru]

No no no, you're supposed to say "But Tomken & Dundas is a destination! The Tomken bus has 2600 riders a day, which is 300 more than YRT's Jane route, and Jane is getting a subway!"

Any serious extension would go to Sherway.

 

[drum118]

Ridership of 19 is between 20-30,000 a day depending on the day of the week.

I have yet to do data numbers for weekday 40' buses compare to 60' and over 12 months behind doing this.

70-80% of riders using 19 get off at Sq One.

60% of riders using 19 south of Sq One travel to/from Dundas.

40% of riders using 19 north of Sq One go to/from Brampton.

If MT did real ridership load factor of 50 at peak and 35 for off peak, MT would be running 3 minute headway south of Sq One and 5 minutes north at peak time. During weekday, headway for off peak would be 5-8 split.

MT needs run 6-8 split on Sat and 10-12 on Sunday to deal with close doors we get today.

Dundas see close to 20,000 a day with the bulk of ridership between 19 and Islington. Ridership drops off west of Erindale Station Rd for both 1's.

Both routes can see more service if there was better service on them, let alone the other routes.

With the redevelopment of Hurontario and the City Core over the next 20 years, 19 will see close to 75,000 riders a day. Dundas, if redeveloped correctly could see 100,000 a day and this includes riders west of Mississauga using it.

Outside of 19 as a n-s route, Dixie Rd will see the most increase of ridership due to the industrial area. 75% of ridership is north of Dundas. Southdown-Glen Erin (new 13 routing come May 2008) is the next one follow by 9, 10, 61, 38, 44 and 45. Land density doesn't support high ridership now.

10 and 38 routes will be change over the next few years.

For e-w, 34, 39, 35, 20, 23, 7 and 42 can see higher number if there was some real service on these route in the first place. 39 and 35 will see changes come May.

26 and 3 need better service today to the point 3 needs to run every 10 minutes off peak and 5 at peak. As for 26, every other bus is only require west of Sq One and again service needs to be be the same as 3. One reason the 76 was added. Only problem is 20 minute service west of Sq One using every other bus and below 12 minute service requirement.

GO has said they expect to carry 10,000 for off peak and 25,000 for peak for the BRT.

19, 1, 26. 3 and 5 are the top 5 routes for MT and ranking.

If 23 is converted to an LRT and connects to TTC, ridership will jump but will not make the top 5. If the blinders are taken off people. the Lakeshore has a great number of areas that can be redeveloped for higher density that could put 23 in the top 5 of high ridership routes.

I still say that both the BD and the Eglinton Subway have to end up at Sq One since the City core will house 150,000+ people either living, working or going to school in this area over the next 20 years.

 

[jeicow]

Any serious extension would go to Sherway.

Can someone actually tell me why Sherway deserves a subway stop? Everyone keeps saying any subway extension should go there but WHY?!?!? There's nothing there except for a giant mall, limited use hospital (it's ER closes after 9pm I believe), big box (including everyone's favourite Wal-Mart, Home Depot and Best Buy), two condos u/c (and two more coming), a hydro corridor that limits development of a large amount of the land there and that's about it. It's disconnceted from the general area (surronded on two sides by highways, a creek/green area to the west, and railways to the north). Only one TTC bus actually regularly serves it (two limited service routes) in addition to one MT route.

 

[Panzerfaust]

Can someone actually tell me why Sherway deserves a subway stop?

I would like to know this too. I can't see much benefit at all in an extension to Sherway, given how it's just a big mall and big box sprawl. Heh, bit of unintentional poetry there.

I've always thought a westward extension to West Mall and Dundas would be a lot more useful. It could have an intermediate stop at the Cloverdale Mall, since everyone seems obsessed with serving suburban malls, and possibly at Shorncliffe as well. There is a ton of room for a bus terminal at West Mall, and you could also build park and ride lots for people coming off Highway 427. It's a convenient place for all the Mississauga routes to funnel into as well, hence the large bus terminal.

It even plans for the future, with extensions further into Mississauga along Dundas possible at a future date. That would be a lot harder and more expensive to do with the subway ending at Sherway. Unless of course you extended it along the Queensway, but any extension along there would be another Sheppard judging from the low density residential along most of the route.

Thoughts?

 

[EnviroTO]

If they are thinking of adding a Sherway stop they should do it before they make Kipling the GO/MT hub. If the subway was extended to Sherway then Sherway would make the better hub being right on the border of Mississauga, being a shopping and office destination with a growing residential presence, and being located right on the 427 and QEW.

 

[jeicow]

Sherway is in a terrible place to connect with all of the routes that currently route into Islington and will be relocated to Kipling. Sherway is too far south to connect with any of the current routes. For instance, the distance for running the 1-Dundas into there (which includes a lot of back trackng) would be the same as running it right into Kipling, but the fact that Kipling if further on is better for the commuter overall (plus I remember there being HOV lanes for most of the stretch). The fact that Queensway through Mississauga is mostly lined with an above average hydro corridor to the south, and industry (a good number of which depends on the railway, and the rest being Fortune 500 size) would really have no redevelopment potential in the grand scheme of things.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You guys aren't thinking long-term: given future fare coordination or some kind of smart card or who knows what, MT buses won't all need to run to the same place: Burnhamthorpe can go to Islington, Bloor can go to Kipling, Dundas can go to a stop near Dundas & the East Mall, etc. After the Hurontario LRT is built, throw in a rapid bus lane along Queensway to connect to Sherway.

Malls generate more riders than anything else, provide abundant parking for park'n'riders, are easily redeveloped, etc. Everyone keeps saying Dundas between Dixie and the West Mall could be redeveloped, but Sherway is already being redeveloped. A line can still easily get to Dixie & Dundas after Sherway.

 

[Dan416]

Well if you look on a map, it'd be a big dip southward to catch Sherway before coming back up to Dundas to reach Dixie. I'd take an extension to Sherway for now. The Bloor line hasn't been extended since what, 1981, and how much of a population explosion has there been in the west end? Huge! There's a million people in Peel unserved by the subway.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Kipling station to Dixie & Dundas is virtually the same distance via Sherway or via Dundas. Is anyone in Brampton really going to sit on a bus for an hour and then sit on the subway for 45 minutes when an improved GO network could do the same trip in less than half the time?

 

[nfitz]

Why not branch the subway. Half the trains going to Sherway (and perhaps one day to Port Credit), and the other half running to MCC or Pearson.

Could do the same thing at the other end one day. Half heading to STC, and the other half heading along Eglinton to Kingston Road.

 

[lordmandeep]

why not just build a transfer point..

Meaning the main line goes to the Airport while a new line goes south to Sherway and Mimico...

 

[doady]

The best place for MT hub in Toronto is at East Mall, but they would have to move the GO station there. East Mall would be the best locations even if the subway is extended to Sherway. Sherway is too far south and there is nothing along the Queensway, so it is not a suitable hub for MT and would really inconvenience riders. MT doesn't even provide any service on the Queensway.

I think that if the subway is extended at least as far as Sherway, then a terminus at Dixie and Dundas would make the most sense, to connect to the LRT, and bus routes 5 and 51. It would also make it much easier for MT riders to get to Sherway. And the intersection itself has the potential for massive redevelopment (as does the rest of the Dundas corridor). The East Mall station would still be the primary terminal though.

 

[Dan416]

Is anyone in Brampton really going to sit on a bus for an hour and then sit on the subway for 45 minutes when an improved GO network could do the same trip in less than half the time?

Actually I think a lot of people do that. They take the 77 to Finch and then subway the rest of the way. It's usually only more affluent people who take GO.

I liked Jane Pitfield's idea of constant subway expansion. You have to ask yourself why a city like Toronto has seen ZERO downtown subways built in, well, forever, when the city is growing like crazy.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

One branch to Sherway and one to the airport is a splendid plan, so splendid that the TTC will find some way to claim it is impossible.

Actually I think a lot of people do that. They take the 77 to Finch and then subway the rest of the way. It's usually only more affluent people who take GO.

So we should spend billions of dollars for 2000 people that can't take GO because GO service currently sucks? Wouldn't it be better to pluck some low-hanging fruit first through something as crazy as hourly GO trains with some kind of integrated fare? It's these groups of one or two thousand people that should be ignored or at least given little weight; their niche travel patterns should not hold the rest of the city hostage.

Infinitely flexible bus routes must be subservient to subway alignments, not the other way around. Once fares are somehow integrated, Peel bus routes should run to whichever subway/GO station is closest. There is no one best subway station for every person in Peel to ride a bus to.

 

[Dan416]

One branch to Sherway and one to the airport is a splendid plan, so splendid that the TTC will find some way to claim it is impossible.



So we should spend billions of dollars for 2000 people that can't take GO because GO service currently sucks? Wouldn't it be better to pluck some low-hanging fruit first through something as crazy as hourly GO trains with some kind of integrated fare? It's these groups of one or two thousand people that should be ignored or at least given little weight; their niche travel patterns should not hold the rest of the city hostage.

Infinitely flexible bus routes must be subservient to subway alignments, not the other way around. Once fares are somehow integrated, Peel bus routes should run to whichever subway/GO station is closest. There is no one best subway station for every person in Peel to ride a bus to.

I actually agree with you insofar as at LEAST hourly GO trains are needed (on all lines), and I also agree that buses should be routed to whatever subway station is closest. For example, doady or drum118 (one or the other, or both) believe that the 26 Burnhamthorpe should (a) replace TTC service along and (b) continue running along to Islington station, even though MT is getting a terminal at Kipling. Thus even if a Sherway station is built, not many MT buses would route there, as it is too far south. They might increase the frequency of the bus to Sherway or add routes, however.