officers were forced to shoot a police horse

[Antiloop33rpm]

I can't comment on what may have happened in TO, but I marched in the huge one in NY in February '03 and there were *very* few kids present, if any. That was decidedly NOT a proper environment for a young child, and virtually everyone there grasped this obvious fact. An angry political march simply should not double as a nursery, period.

I think it would be fair to say that the rallies that took place in NYC and Toronto (or any other Canadian city) where both rather different in nature. In NYC, or any American city, those who took to the street were dissenting against there own government in the lead up to the invasion. This kind of statement is one that could be expected to be met with resistance, very often force, and is deffinetely not a place to big your kids.

The marches in Canada had a different nature too them. It was primarily about being against the occupation, but it was also a very peaceful show of solidarity for the people of Iraq who were about to be attacked. I was in Ottawa for the first large scale march and while not a huge crowd, about 5000 or so, it was not a protest plagued by young anarchist screaming death to the empire, but mostly a very somber expression of anti-war messages. I agree with Shawn that in the case of the Toronto march that there really was no problem with children or young people taking part as they never had the same potential for agression here.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

It is fairly widely suspected that prior to the rally, Harris' gov't instructed the cops to beat up the crowd, regardless of their actual behaviour

I find that impossible to believe. The notion of Harris ordering senior Toronto Police commanders to wade into the crowds with truncheous swinging is ludicrous, especially given the fallout from Ipperwash. Command decisions just aren't made that way, especially for a force that the Premier's office doesn't even have control over.

 

[adma]

Spacing on Cops on Horses

 

[unimaginative2]

OCAP was only one element of that protest, and indeed many family-friendly groups were present that day. OCAP's reputation for violence was really created after those incidents.

This is really a tragedy, compounded by the fact that the guy was clearly aiming at the cop and not just the horse. I hope they continue these horse patrols, as they're a great way to make the police closer to the community.

 

[Observer Walt]

Matthew Blackett (Spacing) usually publishes good stuff. He's seriously off base this time. I hope they keep the horse patrols going.

 

[BrianHawkins1]

fiendish:

I have no idea whether or not the pseudo-police-riot happened for that reason or not, but I think it's frankly naive to just dismiss the possibility outright, in part because of things like Ipperwash and what it revealed, fallout or not.

"Command decisions just aren't made that way"

What you believe depends on what you believe. If you flatly refuse to consider that the official by-the-book chain of command may not always be rigorously adhered to, then there's no way to persuade you that it even might have occurred. Like I said, I don't know what happened or why, but the cops' behaviour on that day was definitely unusually aggressive and violent by contemporary TO standards. I don't have any trouble imagining the Harris mob (or some of the cops) itching to 'teach a lesson' to those uppity, trouble-making OCAP types - I can't think of a group that they would likely have thoroughly despised more. Add in the generally mean-spirited nature of that gov't and their open, scapegoating contempt for the homeless and the poor, and it seems like at least a realistic possibility to me. And it's not as if nothing even remotely comparable has ever occurred: "I want the ****ing Indians out of the park..."

 

[adma]

Matthew Blackett (Spacing) usually publishes good stuff. He's seriously off base this time. I hope they keep the horse patrols going.

I guess, then, it's the Spacing version of that anti-communal-oven-at-Wychwood spew on readingtoronto.com some time back--that is, a true "take a valium" moment...

 

[bizorky]

It is fairly widely suspected that prior to the rally, Harris' gov't instructed the cops to beat up the crowd, regardless of their actual behaviour (which was indeed provocative, as it turns out).

I know this is difficult for some people to believe, but (1) the police are not like the Nazi SS, and (2) the police do not, and can not receive such instructions as these instructions are against the law. The police and the government are distinct organizations and operate at arms length. Police are not marching morons, any such attempt to discharge such orders would have been protested and reported by the police themselves.

I have been to plenty of protests as an observer, and I have often wondered what was on the mind of some parents when they showed up with their infants or toddlers, particularly when they knew that there was a potential for tensions to get out of hand.

 

[BrianHawkins1]

"the police do not, and can not receive such instructions as these instructions are against the law."

That sentence is just silly. So the law is never bent or broken? Come on, man, wtf?

"any such attempt to discharge such orders would have been protested and reported by the police themselves."

My, what extraordinary faith in the absolute ethical purity of the cops.

I've said this a couple of times already, but just to be super-clear: I do not know if anything like that actually happened, but to claim that it is impossible simply because it is illegal is just a laugh. And truly naive. A little scary, even. I mean, what else do you believe is outside the realm of possibility simply because it would violate the law?

 

[bizorky]

That sentence is just silly. So the law is never bent or broken? Come on, man, wtf?

My sentence is silly? Please recall what prompted me to write it:

t is fairly widely suspected that prior to the rally, Harris' gov't instructed the cops to beat up the crowd, regardless of their actual behaviour (which was indeed provocative, as it turns out).

Fairly, widely suspected? By who? By you? By the people who actively seek out conflict at protests? The government instructed? The government? Which part? The whole public service? The MPP's? Who? Did they instruct the horses as well? Paranoia is not evidence, nor is heresay. Before you rap someone else for being silly, read your own stuff first. I was commenting on your posted assertion, not on any and all possibilities that could happen over all of time.

My, what extraordinary faith in the absolute ethical purity of the cops.

So no police officer would ever be capable of reporting a wrong doing? Your hyperbole aside, I am curious if you assume all police are essentially the gestapo? Do you believe they all think the same thing, act the same way, are all nutheads with guns? When you see police, do you see "enemy," or do you happen to see human beings?

And as for yourself, no faith at all in your fellow human beings? Simply ready to split the world into us and them? Not capable of seeing the shades between black and white?

As for protests, it still amazes me how some people in crowds get sucked into violence by instigators who take it upon themselves to create problems at otherwise peaceful demonstrations. Too many people forget that their protest is, for example, against the government, and once whipped up, view the police as the enemy simply because the police are available.

 

[unimaginative2]

I don't disagree with you, but the OPP officers at the Ipperwash inquiry specifically said that Harris and his people thought that they could and should control the OPP.

 

[BrianHawkins1]

"Fairly, widely suspected? By who? By you?"

First of all, no - not by me, and I never said that I did. I don't think it happened (well, probably not, anyway), only that it could have. And it is hardly only a whacked-out fringe who suspect it might have. I'm not inclined to prepare an essay referencing every 'legitimate' source that ever mused about this, but it was definitely a thought that was floating around at the time.

"the OPP officers at the Ipperwash inquiry specifically said that Harris and his people thought that they could and should control the OPP."

Right. It is hardly foolish or 'paranoid' to speculate along these lines. From a recent Star article about Ipperwash:

"A key issue at the inquiry is whether politicians interfered in police operations"

www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs...&t=TS_Home

This notion is absolutely not fringe - read that again: it is "A key issue at the inquiry". Is it really so far-fetched to imagine that something similar could have happened at Queen's Park?

"I am curious if you assume all police are essentially the gestapo? Do you believe they all think the same thing, act the same way, are all nutheads with guns? When you see police, do you see "enemy," or do you happen to see human beings?"

No, of course not. How ridiculously presumptuous based on one assertion about one possible incident, that I never claimed to personally believe anyway. One of my in-laws is RCMP, guy, and my favourite uncle is in law enforcement. Satisfied?

"no faith at all in your fellow human beings? Simply ready to split the world into us and them? Not capable of seeing the shades between black and white?"

Holy crap, you've inferred an incredible amount from a simple statement that one ugly thing was maybe not out of the question. You accuse me of black-and-white thinking, but it's you who have assumed that it's either all or nothing: apparently if I don't refuse to consider that something dark may have happened, then I must loathe all cops and see the entire world as a polarized battle field, and nothing it between. But yeah, it's me who's spewing hyperbole, taking things over the top and making outrageous accusations just by pointing out that it is a long way from impossible that such an event might not be a loopy assertion, and by suggesting something similar to what the official Ipperwash inquiry is openly stating.

 

[EnviroTO]

Are you kidding me? A confrontational political demonstration has got to be almost the last place imaginable where it's appropriate to bring an infant. Demonstrations are great because they are free expressions of political will and opinion from *adults*, not because they're family events.

I agree. All political protests are no place to have a young child. These children have no valid opinion on the topic and are at risk if the demonstration turns ugly. Children at peace vigils are one thing, children in a strike line or political process is another.

 

[bizorky]

I don't think it happened (well, probably not, anyway), only that it could have. And it is hardly only a whacked-out fringe who suspect it might have.

Of course you are not sure it happened (well, not so sure), nor are the not-so-whacked out fringe for that matter, but the assertion has been made, regardless of the absence of any proof. But hey, speculation can still be fun, right?

It is hardly foolish or 'paranoid' to speculate along these lines.

Yes, speculation, there is that the word again. So speculate all you want and don't get so upset when someone is pointing it out to you.

"A key issue at the inquiry is whether politicians interfered in police operations"

Yes, a key issue at an inquiry. But a public inquiry is not a court of law, where the standards of what constitutes evidence is much more stringent. Speculation would not cut it there. And the conclusions from this inquiry suggest what so far?

Don't bother answering. I read the newspapers, too.

Is it really so far-fetched to imagine that something similar could have happened at Queen's Park?

Far-fetched? Ah yes, we are speculating again. I was not inside Queen's Park, nor were you.

One of my in-laws is RCMP, guy, and my favourite uncle is in law enforcement. Satisfied?

So go ask them if they would ever follow orders from government officials to rough up a crowd and potentially cause injury on purpose. I would assume that they would insist the orders be written down and signed so when it came time for the lawsuits...well you get the rest.

Holy crap, you've inferred an incredible amount from a simple statement that one ugly thing was maybe not out of the question. You accuse me of black-and-white thinking, but it's you who have assumed that it's either all or nothing: apparently if I don't refuse to consider that something dark may have happened, then I must loathe all cops and see the entire world as a polarized battle field, and nothing it between. But yeah, it's me who's spewing hyperbole, taking things over the top and making outrageous accusations just by pointing out that it is a long way from impossible that such an event might not be a loopy assertion, and by suggesting something similar to what the official Ipperwash inquiry is openly stating.

Yes, I inferred that you were speculating. That's all that was inferred from your otherwise baseless assertions (whether they are yours or not) about what possibly, maybe, coulda gone on inside Queen's Park that day.

The suggestion that you think in black and white came from your own excessive response to my post. You, too, assume alot on the basis of your own allegation that the government told police to beat on people. The point is you have no idea. You also jumped on me when I pointed out that the police operate independently from the government, reading things in my statements that were not there.


Here is what I said:

the police do not, and can not receive such instructions as these instructions are against the law. The police and the government are distinct organizations and operate at arms length. Police are not marching morons, any such attempt to discharge such orders would have been protested and reported by the police themselves.

The police do not receive instruction on how to deal with crowds from annonymous government officials. It is their job to figure out what to do. They will do it their way as they are the ones who face injury in that situation. That is what they are trained for. The police and government operate independently, otherwise the police could never act against the government in pursuit of criminal investigations. That is the law.

If you can find evidence concerning your (maybe) allegation, please post it. Otherwise just stick with your own term of "speculation," and remember it's meaning.

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

The service for the horse will be held today, over one thousand police are expected. I am always moved emotionally when animals put theit lives on the line for people, and especially when they're service animals on police duty. Let's not forget them...

Nitro - German Shepherd
Vancouver Police Department
Killed during suspect pursuit, 2006
www.ctv.ca/servlet/Articl...6/20060206

Cyr - German Shepherd
Canine unit of the Saskatoon Police Service
Shot to death 2001
www.purina.ca/halloffame/...ll2004_cyr

Bandit - Belgian Malinois
Sydney, NS RCMP
Shot to death, 2000
www.purina.ca/halloffame/...001_bandit

Caesar - Rottweiler
Edmonton Police, Alberta
Shot to death protecting school children, 1999
www.purina.ca/halloffame/...?year=1999