doady
Senior Member
Eglinton East has lower ridership because it's shorter. However, Eglinton West has higher ridership potential because it's a corridor with regional significance. And subway would have more regional influence than bus or LRT.
|
|
|
North American Transit System Ranking
- Thread starter King of Kensington
- Start date
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Member Bio
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2008
- Messages
- 7,495
- Reaction score
- 1,557
- Location
- Downtown Toronto, Ontario
Very true, I guess I forgot that. Yes Eglinton was supposed to be a subway, preferably from the airport to Kennedy, maybe include the SRT in that, it would not take much to change it over as well but that's water under the bridge.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Circumstances have changed since the 90s. Eglinton East does not have the usage to justify the subway. If the Eglinton East Subway were built, we'd probably have a line almost as overbuilt as Sheppard.
doady
Senior Member
Eglinton East in isolation, there is no point in subway. But as an extension of Eglinton West, I don't see any problem...
With LRT or subway, and especially subway, there is not restriction in length like with regular bus. It is an opportunity to unite east and west. I don't see why you wouldn't take advantage of that opportunity...
The potential of Eglinton West Subway itself and it's regional value would never be fully realized without East. That's a similar problem with the current Sheppard subway too.
Keep in mind too, the Spadina line provides relief from the west of Yonge, and there is no relief line east of Yonge. So comparing Eglinton West vs East, that's not a 1:1 comparison. Build a subway line along Don Mills first and then compare.
With LRT or subway, and especially subway, there is not restriction in length like with regular bus. It is an opportunity to unite east and west. I don't see why you wouldn't take advantage of that opportunity...
The potential of Eglinton West Subway itself and it's regional value would never be fully realized without East. That's a similar problem with the current Sheppard subway too.
Keep in mind too, the Spadina line provides relief from the west of Yonge, and there is no relief line east of Yonge. So comparing Eglinton West vs East, that's not a 1:1 comparison. Build a subway line along Don Mills first and then compare.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Is it fair to suggest that Toronto is set to have the best transit system in North America?
GO RER is a world class suburban rail network, that’ll deliver train service every 5 to 10 mins in most of the GTA. No cities in North America, and few around the world can boast such extensive suburban transit coverage.
Toronto now has five rapid transit expansions under construction as we speak (Ontario Line, Eglinton Line, Eglinton West, Scarborough, and Yonge North). Toronto’s network should be 136 km by the mid 2030s.
Toronto’s bus and streetcar network is the best in the United States or Canada. Almost the entire population of Toronto is a short walk away from a bus line, and buses run frequently deep into the suburbs all day.
The city also has various other miscellaneous projects under construction, including the Finch LRT, Hamilton LRT, Hurontario LRT. its funny how what’s considered a “miscellaneous project” in Toronto would be considered a generational transit upgrade in nearly all other North American cities.
Toronto would be competing with New York, Chicago, Vancouver and Montreal for the crown.
New York’s subway network is bigger, but it’s service quality is poor. In many areas, it's suburban transit coverage is mediocre and infrequent compared to Toronto’s GO RER network. Overall I'd rather ride Toronto's 2031 network.
Chicago’s subway network is similar to Toronto’s in terms of length and service frequency. Chicago has a decent regional rail network, but GO RER outclasses it. Toronto also has a better bus/streetcar network. Overall, I'd rather ride Toronto's.
Vancouver SkyTrain system is truly world class. It’s network coverage is fairly similar to what we’ll have in 2030s Toronto, and it’s service quality is much better than Toronto’s. However, Toronto’s has the far stronger bus and suburban rail networks. Overall, I'd rather ride Toronto's.
Montreal would be close competition. In the urban core, Montreal’s metro system is slightly better than Toronto’s in 2031. And REM will deliver RER-level service quality to much of suburban Montreal. However, Toronto’s suburban system has more extensive suburban coverage. Toronto’s bus and streetcar network is also better. This is a close one, but again I'd rather ride Toronto's network.
GO RER is a world class suburban rail network, that’ll deliver train service every 5 to 10 mins in most of the GTA. No cities in North America, and few around the world can boast such extensive suburban transit coverage.
Toronto now has five rapid transit expansions under construction as we speak (Ontario Line, Eglinton Line, Eglinton West, Scarborough, and Yonge North). Toronto’s network should be 136 km by the mid 2030s.
Toronto’s bus and streetcar network is the best in the United States or Canada. Almost the entire population of Toronto is a short walk away from a bus line, and buses run frequently deep into the suburbs all day.
The city also has various other miscellaneous projects under construction, including the Finch LRT, Hamilton LRT, Hurontario LRT. its funny how what’s considered a “miscellaneous project” in Toronto would be considered a generational transit upgrade in nearly all other North American cities.
Toronto would be competing with New York, Chicago, Vancouver and Montreal for the crown.
New York’s subway network is bigger, but it’s service quality is poor. In many areas, it's suburban transit coverage is mediocre and infrequent compared to Toronto’s GO RER network. Overall I'd rather ride Toronto's 2031 network.
Chicago’s subway network is similar to Toronto’s in terms of length and service frequency. Chicago has a decent regional rail network, but GO RER outclasses it. Toronto also has a better bus/streetcar network. Overall, I'd rather ride Toronto's.
Vancouver SkyTrain system is truly world class. It’s network coverage is fairly similar to what we’ll have in 2030s Toronto, and it’s service quality is much better than Toronto’s. However, Toronto’s has the far stronger bus and suburban rail networks. Overall, I'd rather ride Toronto's.
Montreal would be close competition. In the urban core, Montreal’s metro system is slightly better than Toronto’s in 2031. And REM will deliver RER-level service quality to much of suburban Montreal. However, Toronto’s suburban system has more extensive suburban coverage. Toronto’s bus and streetcar network is also better. This is a close one, but again I'd rather ride Toronto's network.
Last edited:
rbt
Senior Member
Despite NY being split across a number of agencies (Long Island Rail Road, Metro North, NJ Transit), some routes on each of those systems match service levels GO RER will have. I expect GO RER will be cleaner, more reliable, and have faster speeds.
Mexico City, by 2030, may also have 200+km of suburban commuter rail service, and they tend to run all their transit lines at very high capacity.
GTA will certainly be punching above it's weight as both those cities have over double the population.
Xav
Active Member
Having lived in both cities, I would say the difference is really in the suburbs. Montreal's suburban networks are not very efficient, and we're going through a horrible phase of sprawl. In the city though, Toronto and Montreal are pretty much the same honestly.
Thankfully our premier is obsessed with comparing Quebec with Ontario, so hopefully Toronto provides an example on what to do
isaidso
Senior Member
Things are certainly looking very promising for transit in Toronto but perhaps we should back pedal a little? Toronto could very well vie for best in North America but there are LOTS of cities around the world that have extensive suburban transit coverage. What this investment will do is bring our system up to that standard. Being one of the best in North America is a fairly low bar.
In the 1990s, Toronto patted itself on the back and there was a sense of 'job done'. We then proceeded to rest on our laurels and invest next to nothing for 20 years. It's a wonderful time for PT in our city but even if it all gets built on schedule and as planned, there's tons more to be done. Investment, upgrades, renovation, and expansion is a never ending job. So let's keep our foot on the gas pedal, continue adding lines, and start stitching all the different systems in Greater Toronto - Hamilton together.
Last edited:
north-of-anything
Active Member
There are special interest groups in Chicago advocating for a new rail link between two of their commuter/intercity lines, and they're actually using the further-along GO RER as a proposal to emulate.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that Toronto is going to surpass cities like Chicago, New York, and Montreal, just by comparing what Toronto will have soon with what other cities have now. For example, the East Side Access project in New York will be finished this winter, and will be absolutely huge for their urban rail systems. Line 5 Eglinton will not be nearly as transformative for Toronto as a whole.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that Toronto is going to surpass cities like Chicago, New York, and Montreal, just by comparing what Toronto will have soon with what other cities have now. For example, the East Side Access project in New York will be finished this winter, and will be absolutely huge for their urban rail systems. Line 5 Eglinton will not be nearly as transformative for Toronto as a whole.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
How would you guys rank the top systems in North America in 15 years? Of course taking into account the size, geography and particularities of each city (I wouldn’t peanilze Vancouver for not having a system as large as NYC).
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Oh, absolutely. I’m very much aware that the bar is on the floor for North American transit operators. The fact that Toronto’s system will perform so well relative to its North American counterparts is says nothing positive about transit operators across the continent.
I think its really important for leadership in Toronto to look beyond North America for inspiration. London’s model is one that I think Toronto could learn a lot from. London now has a world class service, but just decades ago it was rather dilapidated. I hope we’ll follow in their footsteps.
north-of-anything
Active Member
Ask me again in 15 years.
ARG1
Senior Member
I think Toronto might be the best transit system relative to its size, however to say its the best outright. A lot of suburban transit is carried on the backs of busses and it isn't helped that the only Crosstown or Circumferential lines we're building are LRTs. I'd say even with all of the new lines we're building, New York is still ahead of us even if we take scale into consideration - however the margin is constantly narrowing.
rbt
Senior Member
That's a very hard question; peak-direction peak-hour service is often very different experience from say 11pm on Sunday. Even cities where I've had very good experiences using transit (like Washington DC or Chicago, or Boston) have forced me into a cab at other times.
I've never felt abandoned in New York, Toronto, Montreal, Seattle, or Vancouver. It might be a 30 minute wait but something will get me where I'm going eventually (even at 3am).
junctionist
Senior Member
Having lived in both cities, I would say the difference is really in the suburbs. Montreal's suburban networks are not very efficient, and we're going through a horrible phase of sprawl. In the city though, Toronto and Montreal are pretty much the same honestly.
Thankfully our premier is obsessed with comparing Quebec with Ontario, so hopefully Toronto provides an example on what to do
Montreal did quite well with the Blue Line I think. Whereas Toronto built a stub of an east-west subway line far out in suburban North York as Line 4, Montreal built a more comprehensive second east-west line in the traditional part of the city. It's also a smaller city.
As a result, my perception is that the Metro covers the city better, or at least the areas where people are most inclined to use transit (e.g. the dense and walkable neighbourhoods and districts of the city and major landmarks). It helps that the engineers didn't handcuff themselves to following a single street when building a line, which doesn't necessarily lead to ideal coverage.
The Ontario Line and Smart Track/GO electrification are going to change the comparison significantly. But I think that Montreal deserves a lot of credit for the usefulness of the Blue Line in the city's transit network, which dates back to 1986.