New Transit Funding Sources

[11th]

Funding wise, would we not be a loooooot better off if we were a province of Toronto/Golden Horseshoe? Other great (dare I say it, 'world class') cities have been able to do great things by having their own regional government and their tax dollars going to themselves. If the rest of Ontario wants to screw itself over repeatedly, that shouldn't involve us.

Way better. For one, we will get to keep our own income tax. That alone pays for lots and lots of transit and other infrastructure. The City of Toronto Act is a joke, it's just another way for the province to (indirectly) offload their financial load to the city.

 

[junior43]

Way better. For one, we will get to keep our own income tax. That alone pays for lots and lots of transit and other infrastructure. The City of Toronto Act is a joke, it's just another way for the province to (indirectly) offload their financial load to the city.

Too bad it will never happen. What's in it for Ontario (regardless of party in charge) to give up almost 2/3's of it's electorate - and power. Ontario already gives too much of it's tax to the Feds, why would Toronto be any different? The province and the feds are not going to give Toronto a sweet heart deal, it would only favour what's left of Ontario and the Feds. Toronto would also become a 'have' province, and Ontario a have not. We'd basically be doing the same thing now but it would be in the form of transfer payments back to Ontario. For any plusses to doing this, there would be far more minuses.

 

[TOareaFan]

Hold on, this sale will only bring about 10 billion. Where are the rest of the 29 billion coming from?

Well I heard $13B from hydro ($3B from the all out sale of Hydro One Networks and Hydro One Brampton)....there was, what, $1.5B (stand to be corrected on that) on the sale of GM shares.....sale of the LCBO H.O. brings "X"......some sort of maximization of revenues from sale of liquor brings "Y". Cap and Trade carbon pricing will bring "Z"....etc.

I don't think they ever said that all of the $29B will come from the hydro sale.

What concerns me about this sale is that if sale of a 60% share in one company and 100% share in two others will generate $13B they must be generating (not a pun) a fairly decent annual net income.......for a province that is running annual 11 figure deficits....how do we make up that revenue shortfall or does the deficit just go up? If it is the latter.......is this not just borrowing but giving it a different name.

 

[wopchop]

Too bad it will never happen. What's in it for Ontario (regardless of party in charge) to give up almost 2/3's of it's electorate - and power. Ontario already gives too much of it's tax to the Feds, why would Toronto be any different? The province and the feds are not going to give Toronto a sweet heart deal, it would only favour what's left of Ontario and the Feds. Toronto would also become a 'have' province, and Ontario a have not. We'd basically be doing the same thing now but it would be in the form of transfer payments back to Ontario. For any plusses to doing this, there would be far more minuses.

It will never happen. Amending the constitution would require agreement from seven provinces representing 50% of the population. Good luck with that.

 

[junior43]

It will never happen. Amending the constitution would require agreement from seven provinces representing 50% of the population. Good luck with that.

Yep, and why would Quebec support it for example - they'd fear Montreal would be next. Same with BC. Nevermind the fact Toronto's considered the center of the universe. None of the provinces (specifically their voters) would want to see Toronto receiving this special status.

ETA: And just think about this. If Toronto was it's own province 5 years ago, we would have had Premiere Rob Ford. Just think of what he could have done in a majority situation?!

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Too bad it will never happen. What's in it for Ontario (regardless of party in charge) to give up almost 2/3's of it's electorate - and power. Ontario already gives too much of it's tax to the Feds, why would Toronto be any different? The province and the feds are not going to give Toronto a sweet heart deal, it would only favour what's left of Ontario and the Feds. Toronto would also become a 'have' province, and Ontario a have not. We'd basically be doing the same thing now but it would be in the form of transfer payments back to Ontario. For any plusses to doing this, there would be far more minuses.

I'll be honest, I couldn't care less about whether it is in Ontario's best interest or not, its in Toronto's best interest. The current federalism model is an outdated relic from the time when municipalities were almost irrelevant. This is a scenario that has reversed in the 21st century and now our future (and Canada's future) relies on the success, the economic and innovative prowess of our cities. Today we are not just competing regionally or nationally, we are competing on the global level and Ontario is quite clearly holding us back.

Its not like Ontario is a poor province outside of Toronto anyway. It would still have cities like Ottawa, London, Windsor, and Kingston, and would be comparable in size, resources and GDP to other provinces of its size.

Toronto would be a 'have' province and have to provide transfer payments, sure, but at the same time we would be able to fund all our extremely pressing infrastructural needs and be in a much better position than we are currently to compete on the global scale.

edit: of course, whether separating is even feasible in our constitution is problematic...

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I am not all that worked up over selling Hydro One when the province keeps 40% of it (with no other individual shareholder going over 10%). Transit has to be paid for somehow, and I think the case for a powergrid with significant private stake is far higher than waiting for anyone else to put money into transit. The revenue tools can come later when the sell can be made (once the improvements are on stream).

AoD

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Yep, and why would Quebec support it for example - they'd fear Montreal would be next. Same with BC. Nevermind the fact Toronto's considered the center of the universe. None of the provinces (specifically their voters) would want to see Toronto receiving this special status.

ETA: And just think about this. If Toronto was it's own province 5 years ago, we would have had Premiere Rob Ford. Just think of what he could have done in a majority situation?!

The problems in Toronto are certainly holding Vancouver and Calgary/Edmonton back too. This is definitely an issue in regards to precedents being set.

I still think that for Canada to remain competitive this century we are going to need to reform our federalism model. The needs of the majority of our population and GDP, the needs of our cities (Vancouver, Calgary/Edmonton, Toronto, Montreal) to build the necessary infrastructure to accommodate this growth, demands the majority of tax dollars going back to our cities. Something that our provinces are reluctant to do because it is not in their political interest to do.


As for Premier Ford, well ideally the Province of Toronto would have implemented ranked ballots and Ford would never have been an issue to begin with.

 

[junior43]

The problems in Toronto are certainly holding Vancouver and Calgary/Edmonton back too. This is definitely an issue in regards to precedents being set.

I still think that for Canada to remain competitive this century we are going to need to reform our federalism model. The needs of the majority of our population and GDP, the needs of our cities (Vancouver, Calgary/Edmonton, Toronto, Montreal) to build the necessary infrastructure to accommodate this growth, demands the majority of tax dollars going back to our cities. Something that our provinces are reluctant to do because it is not in their political interest to do.

As for Premier Ford, well ideally the Province of Toronto would have implemented ranked ballots and Ford would never have been an issue to begin with.

Hold on - Ontario is reluctant to invest in transit? Seems like Wynne is doing everything she can to fund transit.

The issues you point out are correct, but the cities don't need to become provinces to fix it. The Feds and Province just need to re-focus their spending priorities. Also, Toronto's already been given additional taxation powers (LTT, Vehicle tax, road tolls, property taxes increased to proper levels, etc.) they just aren't using all of them.

 

[TOareaFan]

Hold on - Ontario is reluctant to invest in transit? Seems like Wynne is doing everything she can to fund transit.

This is so true.......we may not all agree on how the money is raised or where it is coming from......but significant changes in how the Ontario government operates are coming and they are all for the expressed purpose of raising $29B to invest in transit expansion.

 

[rbt]

Hold on - Ontario is reluctant to invest in transit? Seems like Wynne is doing everything she can to fund transit.

Wynne is enthusiastic. Ontario, even the GTA, still seems to be generally "meh" on the whole thing. Supportive so long as they don't need to do anything (like pay for it).

This is why Wynne is going to great lengths to bury the cost in other departments instead of creating a new line of revenue.

 

[gweed123]

What I'd be interested in seeing is the math on how the changes in some areas that are going to bring in on-going revenue are going to offset the changes made in other areas where on-going revenue is being lost due to privatization.

For example: Will the increase in on-going revenues from franchise fees from the Beer Store and Supermarkets, plus the on-going revenue from some of the other changes, offset the 60% of the revenue that will be lost from Hydro One? If that number comes pretty close to zero, I'd say it's a good investment to make. If it creates a giant budget hole after the sale money has been spent, then it may not be such a wise investment.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Many of the taxes given over to Toronto's jurisdiction are politically unpalatable (property taxes, vehicle registration taxes) and has resulted in political backlash when attempts have been made to implement or raise them. (Fordism) Just look at how a revenue tool like the idea of tolling the Gardiner was received in the Gardiner Expressway thread on here yesterday by our generally more progressive and city-building community here on UT, how do you think it will be received by the general public?

American cities have access to other forms of revenues such as sales tax, which are not as visibly felt by voters and are more politically palatable. Let alone the other taxes the province is currently collecting from Torontonians. (Fuel, Gas, Alcohol, Tobacco, etc.)

Hell, in a city where both property values are skyrocketting and there being a desire for transit-oriented development, I would welcome experimentation with a Land Value Tax if we had the freedom to. It would relieve the pressure on property taxes significantly.

 

[gweed123]

It will never happen. Amending the constitution would require agreement from seven provinces representing 50% of the population. Good luck with that.

This raises a larger issue: Why should other Provinces have a say in whether or not a Province gets to subdivide itself? It doesn't change the seat distribution in the HoC, and the number of Senate seats can be divided as well.

Personally, I would like to see is every metro area with a population greater than 1 million to be eligible to become it's own Province. The issues that these urban areas face is very different than the Province at large. They should be able to control their own affairs.

 

[junior43]

This raises a larger issue: Why should other Provinces have a say in whether or not a Province gets to subdivide itself? It doesn't change the seat distribution in the HoC, and the number of Senate seats can be divided as well.

Personally, I would like to see is every metro area with a population greater than 1 million to be eligible to become it's own Province. The issues that these urban areas face is very different than the Province at large. They should be able to control their own affairs.

They don't need to become provinces to solve these issues. Give all cities over 1M the same taxation options Toronto has and add a few so that they can better control their revenue and where it's spent. Whether we call a city a province or not is not the issue. Redirecting funding and allowing cities to implement various taxes does the same thing with a lot less effort.

Also, if you give every city over 1M provincial status, you might as well revert all province to territories, what they have left will be virtually useless - and at minimum turn all the provinces to have not, meaning all the cities would be making transfer payments to their original provinces anyways. There really is no point to solving this by creating city provinces. Cities would still be funding rural areas, this will never change.