New Transit Funding Sources

[ehlow]

It might not make sense to fill in the existing tunnel, however only Keele to Allen Road is currently being tunnelled. And it would be a lot cheaper to just preserve the existing tunnel, then it would be to start building stations at $100 million a pop.

I think it's more likely that they would just complete the underground section then abandon/cancel the line, if the Conservatives had power.

 

[Solid Snake]

I think it's more likely that they would just complete the underground section then abandon/cancel the line, if the Conservatives had power.

Very unlikely. Eglinton gets built. PERIOD. He said it.

Does he want to bury the whole thing using Sheppard and Finch money? No idea.

Cancelling Eglinton would be political suicide and his electoral strategy is to win over Toronto. He will now do anything that would kill his chance at a reelection. Hell, I even expect him to multiply the Crosstown visits if he gets elected to reassure Torontonians. He knows the city would not forgive a 2nd betrayal

 

[BurlOak]

They also thought Sheppard was "good enough for a subway" at that time. It was political when they started the Sheppard & Eglinton subways.

It's really hard for me to imagine them tunnelling under Eglinton between Weston and the airport. It's much easier for me to imagine it as a lower-cost extension at-grade requiring no tunnels and cheap stops.

I would guess that PC's like P3's as well. So the most logical and consistant thing for them is to have a Vancouver style elevated line from Weston and Pearson (and perhaps Don Mills to Kennedy as well). Each of those could be bundled as a $1B to $2B P3 (or maybe Design Build) contract.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What do you mean "Kennedy empty all the time". That's the busiest subway station on the Bloor-Danforth line other than the Yonge and St. George transfer stations. Heck, it's busier than King, Queen, and Dundas stations. It's almost twice as busy as Downsview station.

Really? I thought the Scarborough part of the BD line was the least used part

Sure, killing the Eglinton West subway was political ... that's what the PC party does ... cuts infrastructure projects for Toronto. Do I support Phase 2? I think it makes sense to Renforth. I'd have to see more detailed study information from Rendorth to Pearson ... though it might make sense for other reasons ... with frequent service coming to the Kitchener line, I think extending it just part Pearson to Malton GO station might be worthwhile, and not particularly expensive.

When has there ever been a study to build subway from Pearson to Mt Dennis? The 1990s EA was only from Eglinton West to Mount Dennis, as far as I know. And that too was political ... just before that, it had only been planned as BRT in the original Network 2011.

Just renforth eh? Interesting...the Liberal can get behind this because it will preserve the UPS and the 192 Rocket. Eglinton West = Renforth to Eglinton West-Allen. This is the Eglinton West line

They must have though it was somehow viable, but I guess you were right here as well.

 

[Johnny Au]

The Crosstown TBMs are well beyond the point of no return for cancellation. In other words, the TBMs are at the point in which it is cheaper to complete the line than it is to fill the tunnels.

 

[nfitz]

Really? I thought the Scarborough part of the BD line was the least used part.

I don't think any part of the line is underused. But does Kennedy look empty when you use it?

If you look at the last 3 Scarborough stations (Victoria Park, Warden, and Kennedy) the total daily ridership is 124,870 a day compared to 113,710 a day for the last 3 Etobicoke stations (Old Mill, Islington and Kipling.

Perhaps Old Mill isn't fair, but still Warden and Kennedy are 97,270 compared to 93,160 at Islington and Kipling. And Kennedy alone is 71,050 compared to only 52,930 at Kipling (only ... however Kipling is the next busiest station after Kennedy).

However, clearly the least-used part of the BD line is Kipling, though that certainly doesn't mean that Kipling is underused!

 

[diminutive]

Sure, killing the Eglinton West subway was political ... that's what the PC party does ... cuts infrastructure projects for Toronto. Do I support Phase 2? I think it makes sense to Renforth. I'd have to see more detailed study information from Rendorth to Pearson ... though it might make sense for other reasons ... with frequent service coming to the Kitchener line, I think extending it just part Pearson to Malton GO station might be worthwhile, and not particularly expensive.

The Eglinton West subway was purely political to begin with. It's not popular here to say it, but killing that thing saved the TTC a few decades of unnecessary OM costs. With the recession and drop in ridership, Eglinton West would have just vampire sucked funds away from every other part of the system and left Toronto with a useless stubway.

How a busway became a subway:

When the Network 2011 report proposed an Eglinton Rapid Transit route, it took great lengths to say that the initial line should not be a subway. Buses on private right-of-way could carry the traffic involved at far less cost, it argued. What had changed over the intervening years to transform the busway into a subway?

The change likely occurred due to political pressures. The cities of Etobicoke and York strongly supported the concept of an Eglinton Rapid Transit line, as did the Region of Peel, but they were unsatisfied with the prospect of a busway. There was political jealousy over the fact that North York had successfully made the Sheppard Subway a priority, when it was felt that their transit needs were at least that acute. On Metro Council meetings, Etobicoke and York formed a voting block agitating that the Eglinton rapid transit line be built as a subway from the start.

When the NDP Government of Bob Rae pushed to get subways under construction, they took care that the projects to be started were balanced evenly between the political players in and around Metro. For North York and Southern York Region, they put forward the Sheppard Subway and the York University extension. For Scarborough, they pushed an extension of the Scarborough RT. For York, Etobicoke and Peel, they pushed the Eglinton Subway. Thus they could show that rapid transit funds were being spent evenly between the different areas within Metro, and nobody went away unhappy. The fact that the truncated versions of the Sheppard and Eglinton Subway together provided less benefit than, say, a single complete Sheppard or Eglinton line, didn't enter into consideration.

Much as almost everyone here will bite my head off for saying this, Harris saved the City a bunch of pain by killing that thing.

There's an insidious logic on this forum and elsewhere along the lines of Toronto needs transit, x is transit, Toronto needs x (the politicians transit fallacy?). Yet, look at the actual transit projects which time and time again get promoted by Queens Park (Sorbara subway, Eglinton West, Scarborough subway, Sheppard subway...) and they're almost worse than doing nothing.

 

[nfitz]

The Crosstown TBMs are well beyond the point of no return for cancellation. In other words, the TBMs are at the point in which it is cheaper to complete the line than it is to fill the tunnels.

For the run between Keele and Eglinton West station, yes. But they have barely even started building the second launch site, near Leslie, yet. Let alone the third launch site, for the piece between Eglinton West and Eglinton station.

Though, given the contracts have all been awarded, they might decided it's cheaper to complete the tunnelling. However that's only a fraction of the price of the line. The big cost is the stations, not the tunnel. The RFP for the bulk of the work, for about $2.5 billion or so was only issued a few months ago, and isn't due until late 2014, and won't be awarded until spring 2015, if they meet the schedule. The tunnels in comparsion are relatively cheap. The section from Brentcliffe to Yonge is only $177 million, including the portal. And the longer piece from Keele to Yonge was $320 million. So the entire tunnel is under $500 million. The stations alone are on the order of $100 million each. Eglinton station is going to be very expensive, with significant changes to where the existing platforms are located ... and I don't think that was part of the $2.5 billion RFP, and will be in a separate contract that TTC will be more involved with.

 

[nfitz]

The Eglinton West subway was purely political to begin with. It's not popular here to say it, but killing that thing saved the TTC a few decades of unnecessary OM costs. With the recession and drop in ridership, Eglinton West would have just vampire sucked funds away from every other part of the system and left Toronto with a useless stubway.

Oh, I don't disagree. If we'd have killed Sheppard East at the same time, we'd likely have had LRT built by now. Heck, for the cost of that subway, they could have built LRT all the way from Yonge to the zoo.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The Eglinton West subway was purely political to begin with. It's not popular here to say it, but killing that thing saved the TTC a few decades of unnecessary OM costs. With the recession and drop in ridership, Eglinton West would have just vampire sucked funds away from every other part of the system and left Toronto with a useless stubway.

How a busway became a subway:


Much as almost everyone here will bite my head off for saying this, Harris saved the City a bunch of pain by killing that thing.

There's an insidious logic on this forum and elsewhere along the lines of Toronto needs transit, x is transit, Toronto needs x (the politicians transit fallacy?). Yet, look at the actual transit projects which time and time again get promoted by Queens Park (Sorbara subway, Eglinton West, Scarborough subway, Sheppard subway...) and they're almost worse than doing nothing.

I agree. We should all be thankful EgWest wasn't built. We'd have another Sheppard boondoggle on our hands. It was one of the unintended benefits of Haris' ill advised decision to cancel the subway.

 

[diminutive]

I agree. We should all be thankful EgWest wasn't built. We'd have another Sheppard boondoggle on our hands. It was one of the unintended benefits of Haris' ill advised decision to cancel the subway.

That's not really fair to Harris... The point of cancelling the subway was to save money. It's a bit odd to suggest saving money was the unintended consequence.

People just like to play up that cancelling that ill advised subway was simply the manifestation of a vicious anti-Toronto sentiment, rather than something which should have been obvious to anyone at the time or retrospectively.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

That's not really fair to Harris... The point of cancelling the subway was to save money. It's a bit odd to suggest saving money was the unintended consequence.

People just like to play up that cancelling that ill advised subway was simply the manifestation of a vicious anti-Toronto sentiment, rather than something which should have been obvious to anyone at the time or retrospectively.

Question: If the original subway had been proposed from Renforth to Kennedy, would you have supported it? Notice you can hide the low ridership numbers better on longer lines?

 

[diminutive]

Question: If the original subway had been proposed from Renforth to Kennedy, would you have supported it. Notice you can hide the low ridership numbers better on longer lines.

No, hell no.

The most efficient solution to Eglinton would have been bleeding riders off onto alternative routes, not just shovelling them to the Yonge and Spadina lines a bit quicker.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

No, hell no.

The most efficient solution to Eglinton would have been bleeding riders off onto alternative routes, not just shovelling them to the Yonge and Spadina lines a bit quicker.

Next Question, same as last one, but this time the DRL has been built and it ends at Mt Dennis and Eglinton East or Sheppard or Finch East(take your pick, whatever works.) Does your opinion change?

 

[diminutive]

Next Question, same as last one, but this time the DRL has been built and it ends at Mt Dennis and Eglinton East or Sheppard or Finch East(take your pick, whatever works.) Does your opinion change?

Nope.

My priority 1 would be frequent (>4tph) on all GO lines and stations all along Egliton (and Lawrence East, in so far as that corridor feeds onto Eglinton). Mt. Dennis, Caledonia, Leaside, Stouffvile/Kennedy, Lakeshore East, maybe a new line along the Scarborough hydro corridor ect... I'm not trying to suggest that would be cheap, either.

If you have all these things, and if you have some kind of DRL (whose route would probably look very different if you had a really top flight GO network), maybe one day demand on Eglinton may justify something, but that day would be after we're all dead so who knows.

It's fun to imagine some kind of huge cross-town route from Scarborough to Pearson, but the demand really isn't there. Unless Y/Eg suddenly adds a tens of thousands of new jobs it's a bit silly to over-invest so much capacity along a route people just use to get somewhere else.