Neptis' Review of Metrolinx's Big Move

[denfromoakvillemilton]

In what world is the DRL not viable? If there's one new subway line in the city that's viable, it's the DRL. Nothing else even comes close, there's massive pent up demand for mass transit in that corridor. And yes, it can provide service to the neighbourhoods it goes through while still relieving Yonge. Only in Toronto is serving those areas considered unimportant.

You can make a decent argument that we have not come close to using our full rail capacity in the GTA. Not saying the DRL is not needed, but would Richmond Hill and them be demanding the subway if GO service ran all day like it's supposed to?

 

[MisterF]

You can make a decent argument that we have not come close to using our full rail capacity in the GTA. Not saying the DRL is not needed, but would Richmond Hill and them be demanding the subway if GO service ran all day like it's supposed to?

Probably not, and I agree that the rail corridors are severely underutilized. But there's only so much they can do. They can provide regional transit for people travelling longer distances, but they can't serve much of the areas east and west of downtown that currently rely on streetcars. Making up for those deficiencies is why subways were invented in the first place. A DRL and upgraded GO serve different, but equally needed, purposes.

 

[ehlow]

Probably not, and I agree that the rail corridors are severely underutilized. But there's only so much they can do. They can provide regional transit for people travelling longer distances, but they can't serve much of the areas east and west of downtown that currently rely on streetcars. Making up for those deficiencies is why subways were invented in the first place. A DRL and upgraded GO serve different, but equally needed, purposes.

Agreed, not only does DRL serve places east and west of downtown that have very high density & transit usage, depending on how far north it goes along Don Mills, it can serve many high-density apartment neighbourhoods in the suburbs, not to mention all the people transferring from east/west bus/LRT lines.

Both should be done, we should both build new subways where needed and electrify & increase service on the GO corridors.

 

[BurlOak]

In what world is the DRL not viable? If there's one new subway line in the city that's viable, it's the DRL. Nothing else even comes close, there's massive pent up demand for mass transit in that corridor. And yes, it can provide service to the neighbourhoods it goes through while still relieving Yonge. Only in Toronto is serving those areas considered unimportant.

Based on almost every transit expert or politician, the DRL is not a priority. The top 5 priorities are (were).

Subway to Vaughan
Scarborough Subway
Eglinton LRT
Sheppard LRT
Finch LRT

Nobody thinks the DRL is that important.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Probably not, and I agree that the rail corridors are severely underutilized. But there's only so much they can do. They can provide regional transit for people travelling longer distances, but they can't serve much of the areas east and west of downtown that currently rely on streetcars. Making up for those deficiencies is why subways were invented in the first place. A DRL and upgraded GO serve different, but equally needed, purposes.

Agreed, not only does DRL serve places east and west of downtown that have very high density & transit usage, depending on how far north it goes along Don Mills, it can serve many high-density apartment neighbourhoods in the suburbs, not to mention all the people transferring from east/west bus/LRT lines.

Both should be done, we should both build new subways where needed and electrify & increase service on the GO corridors.

The thing is DRL will have to go to Finch to provide true relief. Going to Eglinton is not enough now. And that's most because of poor go service. The city of Toronto is effectively raising the level of service for the suburbs when the province is supposed to do that.

 

[MisterF]

Based on almost every transit expert or politician, the DRL is not a priority. The top 5 priorities are (were).

Subway to Vaughan
Scarborough Subway
Eglinton LRT
Sheppard LRT
Finch LRT

Nobody thinks the DRL is that important.

Nobody other than the TTC, city council, and Metrolinx? lol. Okay I'll humour you. Council and the TTC both consider it the top priority and Metrolinx forecasted ridership to be multiple times higher than any other new line, including Eglinton (138 million annual riders compared to 59 million).

The thing is DRL will have to go to Finch to provide true relief. Going to Eglinton is not enough now. And that's most because of poor go service. The city of Toronto is effectively raising the level of service for the suburbs when the province is supposed to do that.

I think people need to accept that Yonge will always be crowded no matter where the DRL goes or how far it extends. Sure the farther it goes the more potential relief it can provide to Yonge, but no matter how long it is it will relieve every surface transit line along its route. It will also provide redundancy to the system and bring rapid transit to many densely populated areas that need it.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Then the Yonge Express with tunneling 2 other tracks on each side with crossover tracks to divert to stations would be true relief.

 

[TFC]

Rather than tunneling 2 express tracks parallel to Yonge, wouldn't the DRL effectively relieve Bloor/Yonge AND increase transit service to neighbourhoods east and west of the financial district? Aren't we trying to increase service to those areas with the DRL?

 

[smallspy]

You can make a decent argument that we have not come close to using our full rail capacity in the GTA. Not saying the DRL is not needed, but would Richmond Hill and them be demanding the subway if GO service ran all day like it's supposed to?

A lot of the lines may not be at capacity, it's true. But the location that they all funnel down into - Union Station - is. You can't do much with them until you solve Union, and even then that will only get you so far.

The other issue with the rail corridors is that, by-and-large, they don't run along established demand corridors. It is much easier to build other modes (BRT, LRT, subway, whatever) within that demand corridor than to try and shoehorn a solution onto an existing corridor that may be some distance away.

Rather than tunneling 2 express tracks parallel to Yonge, wouldn't the DRL effectively relieve Bloor/Yonge AND increase transit service to neighbourhoods east and west of the financial district? Aren't we trying to increase service to those areas with the DRL?

Shhhh. You're supposed to be spouting the truth around here.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[diminutive]

Nobody other than the TTC, city council, and Metrolinx? lol. Okay I'll humour you. Council and the TTC both consider it the top priority and Metrolinx forecasted ridership to be multiple times higher than any other new line, including Eglinton (138 million annual riders compared to 59 million).

And yet Eglinton is the one with TBMs in the ground... I mean, these groups may call the DRL "top priority" or wtv, but it's kind of an empty statement when the Scarborough subway has generated, probably, 20x the council and media debate. Starting from Network 2011, literally dozens of projects have come before the DRL. So, "top priority" in this context is a bit of an empty slogan.

Kinda like HSR. Hasn't that been a "game changer" for decades now? It's almost some kind of political rule where the more politicians profess to favour a project, the less likely it is to get built since, if it was really that important, it would get built as opposed to endlessly trotted around.

 

[innsertnamehere]

they call it top priority today.

it wasn't a priority in 2009 as other measures were being taken to improve the overloading situation and they thought that would be enough. Now they realize it isn't, and the DRL has been moved to #1.

 

[diminutive]

I don't see how one single individual can be so damned convincing. He can't get even the history of Main Street Station right! You haven't countered my arguments as to why his alternative plan was very unrealistic, just trying to throw cold water on the DRL. I'm exaggerating a bit, but you'd almost need giant claws ripping people out of their seats on the BD subway and on to waiting GO trains to get enough people to make that transfer.

Again, you're overestimating the "relief" necessary here. Even assuming the YSE, capacity shortfalls aren't that big. Certainly not enough to justify a new subway.

I think the argument that Union Station is "full" is ridiculous. To begin with, the USRC Capacity study assumes all these bizarro-Canada assumptions like 5 minute dwell times at Union. Moreover, envisioned service levels within those (ridiculous) constraints would still see close to 20 trains passing through Danforth Stn in peak hour, so you wouldn't necessarily need to add any additional trips to begin with.

Plus, unlike the DRL, an electrified express-rail between Danforth/Main and Union could actually see substantial timesaving over the status quo.

Rather than get so offended over a report criticizing the DRL, proponents of the DRL (or a downtown subway more broadly) should focus more on imagining a project which would a.)generate more substantial new ridership b.)produce more substantial time savings for existing riders. Looking at the DRTES, its obvious that most DRL riders are already existing B-D riders and the DRL would only end up saving 3-4 minutes off of existing commutes.

How do you explain how the highest priority is on a Richmond Hill extension, when there's a GO line right there? Shouldn't they be the ones forced onto GO trains? (Not that I agree, but there's some really strange ideas.)

The report's main overall conclusion was that the GO network, everywhere, should be RER-ified much more aggressively. I'm not sure why you say it places the highest priority on the YSE; Neptis specifically recommended some quite significant changes to that project.

And in any case, no passengers "should" or "shouldn't" be forced to use any kind of transit. You're echoing the "Scarborough NEEDS a subway!!!" argument ("East York NEEEDS a subway"?) There's nothing special about East York that should preclude them from the indignity of being "forced" to take the GO train.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

they call it top priority today.

it wasn't a priority in 2009 as other measures were being taken to improve the overloading situation and they thought that would be enough. Now they realize it isn't, and the DRL has been moved to #1.

All agencies and relevant political parties and politicians support the Relief Line. I'm not at all concerned about it not being built.

 

[andrewpmk]

All agencies and relevant political parties and politicians support the Relief Line. I'm not at all concerned about it not being built.

Do you really think that Hudak will build the DRL?

 

[salsa]

And yet Eglinton is the one with TBMs in the ground... I mean, these groups may call the DRL "top priority" or wtv, but it's kind of an empty statement when the Scarborough subway has generated, probably, 20x the council and media debate. Starting from Network 2011, literally dozens of projects have come before the DRL. So, "top priority" in this context is a bit of an empty slogan.

Both the DRL and the Scarborough subway are at the same early stage of the design process. But guess which project has been funded and will get built first? The SRT was already taken care of under the original LRT plan, so the DRL was top priority until Karen Stintz meddled with it.

"Top priority" my ass.