Natural Grass in the Rogers Centre/Possibility of a New Baseball Stadium in Toronto

[nfitz]

As they should.....I am far from convinced that moving to BMO is a move that will "save" the Argos. I think far too many are thinking what happened in Montreal proves that BMO is the answer....I think there are reasons to doubt that.

Oh, definitely. When the Alouettes left the Big O, they moved from the east end to a stadium right downtown, a short walk from the Metro. The Argos would be doing the opposite here. I'd assume that Argo attendance would drop (perhaps after an initial 1-2 year bubble) in BMO compared to re relative comforts and convenience of Skydome.

MLSE wants to own the Argos without having to pay for them - that IS the deal. Similar way Rogers bought the Skydome. "We are the only game in town that can SAVE this situation". Just watch...

Funny thing is, if MLSE (partially owned by Rogers) DID own Argos, couldn't they then decide they may generate more revenue in Skydome.

If MLSE did end up owning them, and moving them to BMO, I wouldn't be surprised if there were further drops in attendance, that they wouldn't find a way to get them back in Skydome.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Oh, definitely. When the Alouettes left the Big O, they moved from the east end to a stadium right downtown, a short walk from the Metro. The Argos would be doing the opposite here. I'd assume that Argo attendance would drop (perhaps after an initial 1-2 year bubble) in BMO compared to re relative comforts and convenience of Skydome.

Funny thing is, if MLSE (partially owned by Rogers) DID own Argos, couldn't they then decide they may generate more revenue in Skydome.

If MLSE did end up owning them, and moving them to BMO, I wouldn't be surprised if there were further drops in attendance, that they wouldn't find a way to get them back in Skydome.

That's a fair point about the location of BMO but the atmosphere of the stadium will still be more like Molson Field than the Big O, so those things perhaps cancel themselves out. And even there, Exhibition Place isn't nearly as remote as the Olympic park, especially with all the new development going on around Liberty village and Fort York (and maybe Ontario Place soon?), even if it isn't as central as the dome, it's not totally out in the sticks.

The best of both worlds was probably when they looked like they might partner with Varsity Stadium, but that ship has long since sailed. It's kind of sad, how they know what they need but just can't get it done. I think their days in SkyDome are over, one way or another, however.

 

[TOareaFan]

That's a fair point about the location of BMO but the atmosphere of the stadium will still be more like Molson Field than the Big O, so those things perhaps cancel themselves out.

They don't "cancel themselves out"....Montreal got both with their move....a move to a better location in a more small crowd friendly environment.....Toronto is talking about moving to an inferior location and getting a not quite as small stadium.

And even there, Exhibition Place isn't nearly as remote as the Olympic park, especially with all the new development going on around Liberty village and Fort York (and maybe Ontario Place soon?), even if it isn't as central as the dome, it's not totally out in the sticks.

No one is saying it is as remote as Olympic Stadium.....it is less accessible to less people than SkyDome...that is the point.

When the Als had the accidental move to McGill they were averaging about 15k a game at the Big O. So moving to McGill created a cozier environment close the city core and a certain level of scarcity of tickets.

The Argos will be taking their current 17k avg....moving to a less accessible stadium which (for football) will hold around 25k. So, less accessible and less scarce.

The Als had a long run of selling out their 20k stadium...take a look at their stats since the expansion to 25k......not only do they not sell out, their average is down around, you got it, 20k.

All the talk of "an argo move to BMO will save them like the Als move did" is overblown and overdone. Two different situations entirely.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

They don't "cancel themselves out"....Montreal got both with their move....a move to a better location in a more small crowd friendly environment.....Toronto is talking about moving to an inferior location and getting a not quite as small stadium.

No one is saying it is as remote as Olympic Stadium.....it is less accessible to less people than SkyDome...that is the point.

Yeah, I understand the specifics of the situations vary in many ways but there are still some similarities. The Big O was probably even worse than Rogers Centre (in terms of location and as a football venue) but clearly both teams need(ed) to be in more intimate settings where 25K people feels like a crowd and not a funeral. Montreal was lucky to have the stadium at McGill for them and, as I said, I think Varsity would have been the best option for the Argos. They also talked about moving to York U at some point didn't they? Even if the idea is "overblown and overdone," do you dispute that they would benefit in being in a more football-friendly and intimate atmosphere?

Anyway, now the Argos are about to get booted out of the dome which, in a way, is kind of a good thing; like parents finally telling their 30-year-old kid it's time to get his own place. They're not going to build a new place, obviously. BMO is relatively central and relatively intimate and it's certainly the best of the options out there....I don't even know there is another option, is there? I could care less for soccer and even less (if possible) for TFC so I don't totally care about their concerns; it's not like they're some storied (or even remotely successful) franchise or the venue is some hallowed ground.

I'm one of those fairweather Argos fans...I don't pay TOO much attention but I'll go if someone has tickets and I'll watch the playoffs and wish them the best, generally speaking. Clearly BMO is not a perfect solution and it isn't the exact same as Montreal but, on balance, it certainly seems like the best of the few moves they have left.

(Now, if the baseball grass plan fails after a few years they could move back but, despite its proximity to the core etc., I don't get the sense they enjoy playing there any more than the fans like watching them there.)

 

[TOareaFan]

Yeah, I understand the specifics of the situations vary in many ways but there are still some similarities. The Big O was probably even worse than Rogers Centre (in terms of location and as a football venue) but clearly both teams need(ed) to be in more intimate settings where 25K people feels like a crowd and not a funeral. Montreal was lucky to have the stadium at McGill for them and, as I said, I think Varsity would have been the best option for the Argos. They also talked about moving to York U at some point didn't they? Even if the idea is "overblown and overdone," do you dispute that they would benefit in being in a more football-friendly and intimate atmosphere?

I suspect for every fan they gain by going to BMO they will lose an equal amount of fans to the combination of worse location and lack of climate control.....after, perhaps, an initial bump. Just a gut feel.

As for the 25k crowd....neither team was getting 25k crowds in their old homes (that is a commonality they have) and, just like the Als now that McGill holds 25k, I suspect neither will in their new homes.

Anyway, now the Argos are about to get booted out of the dome which, in a way, is kind of a good thing; like parents finally telling their 30-year-old kid it's time to get his own place. They're not going to build a new place, obviously. BMO is relatively central and relatively intimate and it's certainly the best of the options out there....I don't even know there is another option, is there?

In order, the argos under Sokolowski and Cynamon looked at (in conjunction with the CSA) the Ex...then Varsity....then York. Declaring each the perfect spot and then (when it seemed they had to put money in) moving on and ended back at the Dome. Another option worth considering (if money is to be put into a stadium for/by the Argos) is what could a similar amount of money do to/for the Pan Am track stadium at York.

I could care less for soccer and even less (if possible) for TFC so I don't totally care about their concerns; it's not like they're some storied (or even remotely successful) franchise or the venue is some hallowed ground.

this isn't and shouldn't be about TFC. Yes there is a need to grant the best possible playing environment for them as tenants....but they should not have the right to block someone from a public facility....even though the vast majority of the money in said facility came from their owners.

I'm one of those fairweather Argos fans...I don't pay TOO much attention but I'll go if someone has tickets and I'll watch the playoffs and wish them the best, generally speaking. Clearly BMO is not a perfect solution and it isn't the exact same as Montreal but, on balance, it certainly seems like the best of the few moves they have left.

BMO is probably their best shot.....but it is far from an easy shot...and the question is who should/will invest the +/- $20million it seems is needed to give them that shot. One thing is for sure, though, there will be a lot fewer fairweather days for those fairweather fans.

(Now, if the baseball grass plan fails after a few years they could move back but, despite its proximity to the core etc., I don't get the sense they enjoy playing there any more than the fans like watching them there.)

Their biggest problem at the Dome is control over schedule.....a problem that is only slightly better at BMO.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I suspect for every fan they gain by going to BMO they will lose an equal amount of fans to the combination of worse location and lack of climate control.....after, perhaps, an initial bump. Just a gut feel.

could be, yeah. I mean, one always gets a new stadium bump and if word gets out the vibe is better, that will help. As for weather...I dunno. Football fans are hardy sorts. People go to outdoor games in other CFL cities, almost all of which have worse weather than here (not to mention Buffalo, Green Bay and other northern NFL cities). That's a toughie to calculate. We're a city of softies, arguably.
(Worth mentioning in the location discussion is that the Jays played at the Ex for years and the distance from downtown [which has shrunk considerably since 1998] was the least of its issues. November weather, however....)

In order, the argos under Sokolowski and Cynamon looked at (in conjunction with the CSA) the Ex...then Varsity....then York. Declaring each the perfect spot and then (when it seemed they had to put money in) moving on and ended back at the Dome. Another option worth considering (if money is to be put into a stadium for/by the Argos) is what could a similar amount of money do to/for the Pan Am track stadium at York.

right, well, I guess that WOULD have been their stadium. But what advantages does York have over BMO at this point? It'll have a subway, eventually, I guess. It's not the worst idea but clearly the Argos ownership is the elephant in the room, which you tacitly acknowledge in terms of who'll pay for a new stadium (or renovations). Clearly the idea is that MLSE is big enough to take on the team and make the renovations. Whether they want to (and for how much to Brailey) is clearly the sticking point.

Like I said, I don't care about TFC. Clearly there are die hards out there worried about what this will do to their treasured field (which has been around for hardly any time at all and hosted not a single soccer game of consequence. Hardly any GOALS of consequence, far as I can tell).

Their biggest problem at the Dome is control over schedule.....a problem that is only slightly better at BMO.

That's their second-biggest problem. To get back on thread, they might have dawdled along at Rogers Centre forever but now the baseball grass is forcing the issue. The Jays own the stadium and they don't want the Argos there. I feel kind of sorry for the Argos who are a storied franchise etc. They probably deserve better but the market it is what it is and, FWIW, I don't know that they have a better option than BMO and I don't know where they'll end up if that deal falls through.

In terms of BASEBALL, I hope they figure out the grass thing soon. I don't hate the Rogers Centre as much as some do but I think putting grass in there will be the biggest improvement they can make without replacing the stadium.

 

[nfitz]

That's a fair point about the location of BMO but the atmosphere of the stadium will still be more like Molson Field than the Big O, so those things perhaps cancel themselves out. And even there, Exhibition Place isn't nearly as remote as the Olympic park, especially with all the new development going on around Liberty village and Fort York (and maybe Ontario Place soon?), even if it isn't as central as the dome, it's not totally out in the sticks.

Pie-IX is hardly the sticks. It's a 12-minute direct Metro ride from Metro McGill.

At least BMO Field has a GO Train ... but so does Skydome. And the 504 or 509 are hardly quick. I'd say BMO is less accessible than Olympic Stadium, and the Big O is less accessible than Skydome.

 

[TOareaFan]

Pie-IX is hardly the sticks. It's a 12-minute direct Metro ride from Metro McGill.

At least BMO Field has a GO Train ... but so does Skydome.

Actually SkyDome/RogersCentre has GO Trains....all lines lead there.....only Lakeshore GOs to BMO. With the recent announced GO expansion that is a pretty interesting distinction now.

 

[Translude15]

That's their second-biggest problem. To get back on thread, they might have dawdled along at Rogers Centre forever but now the baseball grass is forcing the issue. The Jays own the stadium and they don't want the Argos there. I feel kind of sorry for the Argos who are a storied franchise etc. They probably deserve better but the market it is what it is and, FWIW, I don't know that they have a better option than BMO and I don't know where they'll end up if that deal falls through.

In terms of BASEBALL, I hope they figure out the grass thing soon. I don't hate the Rogers Centre as much as some do but I think putting grass in there will be the biggest improvement they can make without replacing the stadium.

It certainly isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. I was chatting to some Cardinals fans at a game last year who told me the Dome exceeded their expectations by quite a bit, and this is coming from fans who are used to the epitome of the retro ballpark craze in Busch Stadium. But yes, the grass is a must in terms of improving the facility as a whole and unfortunately for the Argos, such a project cannot move forward unless the Dome becomes baseball only.

What I've heard from people around the organization is Rogers is looking to re-do the lower bowl seating and implement a sort of club seating style similar to what other MLB clubs (think Yankees, Dodgers, etc.) have done or more locally, the Platinum Club at the ACC. All 200 level seating has been replaced for this season and I would assume the 500 level is next on the docket but like the natural grass installation, reconfiguring the 100 level cannot happen unless the Argos are out of the RC.

 

[TOareaFan]

It certainly isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. I was chatting to some Cardinals fans at a game last year who told me the Dome exceeded their expectations by quite a bit, and this is coming from fans who are used to the epitome of the retro ballpark craze in Busch Stadium. But yes, the grass is a must in terms of improving the facility as a whole and unfortunately for the Argos, such a project cannot move forward unless the Dome becomes baseball only.

What I've heard from people around the organization is Rogers is looking to re-do the lower bowl seating and implement a sort of club seating style similar to what other MLB clubs (think Yankees, Dodgers, etc.) have done or more locally, the Platinum Club at the ACC. All 200 level seating has been replaced for this season and I would assume the 500 level is next on the docket but like the natural grass installation, reconfiguring the 100 level cannot happen unless the Argos are out of the RC.

The part of this I never understand is why grass for Baseball means that no other sports can take place there.

 

[Translude15]

The part of this I never understand is why grass for Baseball means that no other sports can take place there.

I don't think baseball only means completely barring other sports per se but if making the Dome a baseball only facility is what the Blue Jays/Rogers want, and by all means they are free to do so considering they own the place, having the Argos as tenants complicates that end. Don't know why the Blue Jays should undermine their own pursuits for the sake of another team.

 

[TOareaFan]

I don't think baseball only means completely barring other sports per se but if making the Dome a baseball only facility is what the Blue Jays/Rogers want, and by all means they are free to do so considering they own the place, having the Argos as tenants complicates that end. Don't know why the Blue Jays should undermine their own pursuits for the sake of another team.

I guess I am wondering why a grassed Yankee Stadium doesn't have to be baseball only but a grassed Rogers Centre does.

 

[Translude15]

I guess I am wondering why a grassed Yankee Stadium doesn't have to be baseball only but a grassed Rogers Centre does.

Okay, since I get the sense you're just being a smart-ass, why don't we say "stadium used primarily for baseball?" Happy?

 

[animatronic]

I guess I am wondering why a grassed Yankee Stadium doesn't have to be baseball only but a grassed Rogers Centre does.

Yankee Stadium hosts soccer, not football. Football and rugby have end zones.

 

[TOareaFan]

Okay, since I get the sense you're just being a smart-ass, why don't we say "stadium used primarily for baseball?" Happy?

I have no idea why my asking why Rogers Centre with grass can't support/host another sport when Yankee stadium with grass can/does is being a smart ass....thanks for the name calling...it always improves a discussion