Natural Grass in the Rogers Centre/Possibility of a New Baseball Stadium in Toronto

[nfitz]

I keep hearing this "Argos fans are elderly" thing but I've never actually seen any proof of that.

It's hard to quantify. Certainly that's what I've seen anecdotally. When MLS Cup was in Toronto, I was at the match, and saw a lot of the away support. They all seemed younger than me. When the Grey Cup was in Toronto, I kept coming across away supporters downtown ... they all looked in their 60s and older. I've heard comments from those who do attend CFL matches - but I haven't attended any since the 1980s, so I can't say much.

Even if it's true, the number of people watching on TV is huge (viewership dwarfs the Raptors and TFC) and that's a market that isn't being tapped into.

They do better on TV ... but why does that not translate into bums in seats? And how is moving to a lot less physically comfortable stadium, with real weather, and not just a simple stroll from the subway going to help that?

 

[Translude15]

It's hard to quantify. Certainly that's what I've seen anecdotally. When MLS Cup was in Toronto, I was at the match, and saw a lot of the away support. They all seemed younger than me. When the Grey Cup was in Toronto, I kept coming across away supporters downtown ... they all looked in their 60s and older. I've heard comments from those who do attend CFL matches - but I haven't attended any since the 1980s, so I can't say much.

They do better on TV ... but why does that not translate into bums in seats? And how is moving to a lot less physically comfortable stadium, with real weather, and not just a simple stroll from the subway going to help that?

I really think the venue has something to do with declining attendance. As others have mentioned in this thread, Skydome has terrible sight lines for football.

Personally, I'm happy the Argos have a new home. BMO offers a better sight lines and a more intimate fan experience. I'm confident their attendance will improve once they move in.

 

[MisterF]

It's hard to quantify. Certainly that's what I've seen anecdotally. When MLS Cup was in Toronto, I was at the match, and saw a lot of the away support. They all seemed younger than me. When the Grey Cup was in Toronto, I kept coming across away supporters downtown ... they all looked in their 60s and older. I've heard comments from those who do attend CFL matches - but I haven't attended any since the 1980s, so I can't say much.

You must have been at different events than I was because I saw people from all age ranges. A more intimate stadium with better sight lines would be better for the Argos for reasons that others have mentioned. The weather isn't as big a deal as you think, especially with covered seating.

The Argos haven't had a decent football stadium since Exhibition Stadium was renovated for baseball in the 70s. That reno ruined the stadium for both baseball and football.

 

[nfitz]

You must have been at different events than I was because I saw people from all age ranges.

That's the joy of anecdotal evidence. I was at a pre-game party for the Dallas supporters ... I don't recall seeing anyone older than 40 ... most seemed to be younger than 30.

The demographics on the TV broadcast data might provide some enlightenment - but I don't think that level of detail is available.

 

[MisterF]

Poll says Argos, CFL more popular in Toronto than BMO Field co-tenant TFC

I'm really trying not to get into the bickering between supporters of two different sports (I'm more of a hockey fan anyway) but I just wanted to show that there's not going to be any kind of demise of the Argos. Supporters of a city's sports teams aren't supposed to be in their own little feifdoms taking shots at each other. We're not fighting over the iron throne here. How about supporting all the sports teams that we have? How about some pride in Toronto instead of just your own clique?

 

[TOareaFan]

Poll says Argos, CFL more popular in Toronto than BMO Field co-tenant TFC

I'm really trying not to get into the bickering between supporters of two different sports (I'm more of a hockey fan anyway) but I just wanted to show that there's not going to be any kind of demise of the Argos. Supporters of a city's sports teams aren't supposed to be in their own little feifdoms taking shots at each other. We're not fighting over the iron throne here. How about supporting all the sports teams that we have? How about some pride in Toronto instead of just your own clique?

I agree with your sentiment.....I am a soccer fan that hopes the Argos (all our teams really) do welll.....I have my doubts about how BMO Field will impact Argos attendance but will be happy if I am wrong.

That said......let's look at the flaws in this statement from the article you linked.

His findings conclude that 21 per cent of Toronto - and Ontario as a whole - closely track the CFL. The number of MLS supporters is a meager 12 per cent, while that number is reduced to 10 per cent for Ontario, collectively.

1. The question posed seems to be about CFL and MLS not Argos and TFC
2. CFL has had, what, 100+ years to build that support....MLS a wee bit less
3. The question seems to be "do you closely track"....not "will you go".....presumably that question would have produced similar numbers last year when the Argos averaged 17k and TFC averaged 21k (I know the premise now is that stadium will improve attendance but to conclude "It suggests Argos attendance will top that of TFC's on game days - a positive for the newly acquired CFL team." is about as flawed a survey logic leap as I have ever seen).
4. The bolded part is just plain ridiculous......in Ontario there is, exactly, 1 MLS team....there are 3 CFL teams. The fact that people who "closely track" MLS in the part of the province that is not Toronto is less than in Toronto is not a surprise at all. The fact that CFL numbers are the same in the province and the city is also not a surprise....people in Ottawa and Hamilton "closely track" the CFL.....yeah, they have teams in the CFL......but how those numbers translate to higher attendance at Argo's games is beyond my logic.

I welcome the Argos to BMO.....I hope they do well...I hope they do better than I suspect......but this survey/poll is so flawed it is laughable and its publication is just like the TFC supporters tweeting out pictures of the 1950 mud bowl....it is irrelevant and meaningless and, likely, just going to inflame the "debate".

 

[Translude15]

I agree with your sentiment.....I am a soccer fan that hopes the Argos (all our teams really) do welll.....I have my doubts about how BMO Field will impact Argos attendance but will be happy if I am wrong.

That said......let's look at the flaws in this statement from the article you linked.



1. The question posed seems to be about CFL and MLS not Argos and TFC
2. CFL has had, what, 100+ years to build that support....MLS a wee bit less
3. The question seems to be "do you closely track"....not "will you go".....presumably that question would have produced similar numbers last year when the Argos averaged 17k and TFC averaged 21k (I know the premise now is that stadium will improve attendance but to conclude "It suggests Argos attendance will top that of TFC's on game days - a positive for the newly acquired CFL team." is about as flawed a survey logic leap as I have ever seen).
4. The bolded part is just plain ridiculous......in Ontario there is, exactly, 1 MLS team....there are 3 CFL teams. The fact that people who "closely track" MLS in the part of the province that is not Toronto is less than in Toronto is not a surprise at all. The fact that CFL numbers are the same in the province and the city is also not a surprise....people in Ottawa and Hamilton "closely track" the CFL.....yeah, they have teams in the CFL......but how those numbers translate to higher attendance at Argo's games is beyond my logic.

I welcome the Argos to BMO.....I hope they do well...I hope they do better than I suspect......but this survey/poll is so flawed it is laughable and its publication is just like the TFC supporters tweeting out pictures of the 1950 mud bowl....it is irrelevant and meaningless and, likely, just going to inflame the "debate".

I definitely agree with your objections to that article. Can't see the Argos instantly increasing their attendance right out of the gate beyond what TFC currently draws.

That said, I wouldn't doubt the Argos getting to that 25 k per game threshold eventually. I think the less cavernous environs and better sight lines of BMO will entice more fans to games in the long run.

The animosity from certain TFC fans towards the Argos over the field is pretty ridiculous as well especially considering the Argos will use it about 9 times a year.

 

[MisterF]

You guys are making too much of small details. It's perfectly reasonable to conclude from the survey that the CFL is twice as popular as MLS in Toronto, even when the Argos play in a bad stadium with a bad schedule mandated by hostile landlords, with basically zero marketing. The Argos are at rock bottom and the only way to go after this season is up. Toronto may not be a CFL hotbed like Regina, but it's also not the dead zone that it's often made out to be.

 

[TOareaFan]

You guys are making too much of small details. It's perfectly reasonable to conclude from the survey that the CFL is twice as popular as MLS in Toronto, even when the Argos play in a bad stadium with a bad schedule mandated by hostile landlords, with basically zero marketing. The Argos are at rock bottom and the only way to go after this season is up. Toronto may not be a CFL hotbed like Regina, but it's also not the dead zone that it's often made out to be.

It is perfectly reasonable to draw that conclusion.....what is not reasonable is to conclude (as the article does) that this popularity will translate to the Argos outdrawing TFC (it may end up being true or it may not but there is simply not enough data in that survey, nor does the question even ask if people plan on attending).

Could be (as has been pointed out in the past) that this higher level of inerest in the CFL has and will manifest itself as higher tv ratings but not attendance. Could be that people like to "closely track" CFL from their living rooms on TV......we don't know...but the conclusion the article reaches is a Grand Canyon type leap.

 

[MisterF]

It is perfectly reasonable to draw that conclusion.....what is not reasonable is to conclude (as the article does) that this popularity will translate to the Argos outdrawing TFC (it may end up being true or it may not but there is simply not enough data in that survey, nor does the question even ask if people plan on attending).

Could be (as has been pointed out in the past) that this higher level of inerest in the CFL has and will manifest itself as higher tv ratings but not attendance. Could be that people like to "closely track" CFL from their living rooms on TV......we don't know...but the conclusion the article reaches is a Grand Canyon type leap.

Like I said, small details. That line you're quoting is something the author of the article came up with, nothing more. It has nothing to do with the merits of the study.

 

[TOareaFan]

Like I said, small details. That line you're quoting is something the author of the article came up with, nothing more. It has nothing to do with the merits of the study.

Actually the study reaches the same conclusion....but we will never agree so lets move on.

 

[MisterF]

Actually the study reaches the same conclusion....but we will never agree so lets move on.

It doesn't. That conclusion is entirely by the author of the Score article. The closest that the study author comes is "The findings suggest that the Argonauts may not lack for fan support that readily exceeds that of Toronto FC". That's a much more measured statement and very different than saying that the Argos would have higher attendance than TFC. Having higher fan support doesn't necessarily mean higher attendance, especially since the stadium will fit 5000 fewer fans for football. I'm not really sure what there is to disagree on here.

 

[TOareaFan]

It doesn't. That conclusion is entirely by the author of the Score article. The closest that the study author comes is "The findings suggest that the Argonauts may not lack for fan support that readily exceeds that of Toronto FC". That's a much more measured statement and very different than saying that the Argos would have higher attendance than TFC. Having higher fan support doesn't necessarily mean higher attendance, especially since the stadium will fit 5000 fewer fans for football. I'm not really sure what there is to disagree on here.

I guess we are disagreeing over what he meant by the sentence you quoted....perhaps your interpretation would change if you did not truncate the sentence when quoting it. The actual sentence is

"The findings suggest that the Argonauts may not lack for fan support that readily exceeds that of Toronto FC, if in fact they are able to have the opportunity to share BMO field with the soccer team."

If by fan support he did not mean attendance....not sure why it (fan support) is dependent on the stadium?

I doubt we will reach agreement but it is my opinion that he is saying attendance for Argos will exceed TFC. Like I said in my first (and am repeating in my last) post on this survey....that may well turn out to be a fact...but there is no way you can leap to that conclusion from the questions asked in this survey.

 

[MisterF]

I guess we are disagreeing over what he meant by the sentence you quoted....perhaps your interpretation would change if you did not truncate the sentence when quoting it. The actual sentence is

"The findings suggest that the Argonauts may not lack for fan support that readily exceeds that of Toronto FC, if in fact they are able to have the opportunity to share BMO field with the soccer team."

If by fan support he did not mean attendance....not sure why it (fan support) is dependent on the stadium?

I doubt we will reach agreement but it is my opinion that he is saying attendance for Argos will exceed TFC. Like I said in my first (and am repeating in my last) post on this survey....that may well turn out to be a fact...but there is no way you can leap to that conclusion from the questions asked in this survey.

It depends on moving to BMO because that move combined with the new owners will help the overall business. The new owners will actually market the team, a better schedule (not playing second fiddle to the Jays) means more TV viewership, sponsors are more likely to come on board, etc. None of that necessarily means bigger crowds than TFC. But even if you interpret it to mean bigger crowds than TFC, it's still a much more nuanced statement than the one in the article. "May not lack for fan support" is hardly the grand canyon leap you describe it as. It doesn't really matter though - comparisons with TFC attendance will be problematic because of the different capacities. The Argos could sell out every game and still get smaller crowds than TFC. That would be a pretty great scenario for both teams.