Nathan Phillips Square Homeless Issue

[condovo]

I hate to break it to you, but the revitalization as contemplated by this project and and the purpose of this thread has everything to do with physical redesign and nothing to do with the larger social issues as to how homeless is treated by government and society.

The larger social issues of how the homeless are treated by government and society finds its focus in the square. Beautifying it while ignoring this reality is incredibly arrogant and dishonest. Discussing homelessness here is absolutely appropriate.

 

[jje1000]

The square is not meant for sleeping, in boxes, in tents, on benches, whatever. That is an abuse of public space and while that continues to occur on a nightly basis, attempts at beautification are ridiculous bordering on obscene, as are discussions on said beautification.

A square is public space, and as such, all people are free to use it.

But say you don't want that part of society in that public space. Perhaps we might want to put up some gates under the walkways that can be closed at night? Maybe post a few police officers to keep them away? Make the architecture of the square hostile to the homeless? Enforce shelter rules? Give them tickets to Vancouver? Privatize the square?

Maybe we should start some programs to help them get back into society. But of course, that's taking up precious tax dollars that could be used for tax cuts instead.

If they're not mentally ill, then the only help they should receive should come from themselves. It's not the government's duty to provide people with shelter and food. If they are ill, then that's a different story.

Define mentally ill. Does it include the addicted?

 

[Nads Gone Bads]

A square is public space, and as such, all people are free to use it.

But say you don't want that part of society in that public space. Perhaps we might want to put up some gates under the walkways that can be closed at night? Maybe post a few police officers to keep them away? Make the architecture of the square hostile to the homeless? Enforce shelter rules? Give them tickets to Vancouver? Privatize the square?

Maybe we should start some programs to help them get back into society. But of course, that's taking up precious tax dollars that could be used for tax cuts instead.



Define mentally ill. Does it include the addicted?

Schizophrenic, people with dementia, manic depressive and any other forms of chemical imbalances. That depends if they were mentally ill to begin with. If they were healthy and got addicted to drugs that is their own fault and in my eyes it's not the duty of citizens to foot the bill to try to get them well. The help they should receive should be voluntary and not forced. I wouldn't expect anyone to help me if I got addicted to heroin. That would be my problem to tackle.

 

[condovo]

A square is public space, and as such, all people are free to use it..

All people are not free to sleep in the square anymore than all people are free to pull up the flowers or eat the trees in public parks. All are abuse of public space.

But say you don't want that part of society in that public space. Perhaps we might want to put up some gates under the walkways that can be closed at night? Maybe post a few police officers to keep them away? Make the architecture of the square hostile to the homeless? Enforce shelter rules? Give them tickets to Vancouver? Privatize the square?

Are you suggesting that shelter rules shouldn't be enforced?

Maybe we should start some programs to help them get back into society. But of course, that's taking up precious tax dollars that could be used for tax cuts instead.

We've started those programs. We've been "starting" them for 40 years. They don't work. Hence the no vacancy in the square every night.

I guess one area where we do agree is that tax dollars are indeed "precious." I mean, people toil long and hard for those tax dollars. Most people, that is. Do you?

 

[jje1000]

Are you suggesting that shelter rules shouldn't be enforced?

I never mentioned that they should be stopped. What are your suggestions as to keeping the homeless out of the square? Off the trains and out of the streets, on top of that.

We've started those programs. We've been "starting" them for 40 years. They don't work. Hence the no vacancy in the square every night.

The population has been growing for 40 years. The programs have not kept up, and it would take far too many resources to do so.

I guess one area where we do agree is that tax dollars are indeed "precious." I mean, people toil long and hard for those tax dollars. Most people, that is. Do you?

I do, of course. I also enjoy that little tactic that some people use of questioning whether or not others earn money.

 

[condovo]

I never mentioned that they should be stopped. What are your suggestions as to keeping the homeless out of the square? Off the trains and out of the streets, on top of that.

Enforcing shelter rules was on your laundry list of taboo strategies.

The population has been growing for 40 years. The programs have not kept up, and it would take far too many resources to do so.

Why do you assume that the homeless population should grow in relation to the general population or that it would take far too many resources to reduce?

I do, of course. I also enjoy that little tactic that some people use of questioning whether or not others earn money.

My mistake then. I guess you didn't use "precious" in relation to tax dollars facetiously, right?

 

[jje1000]

Enforcing shelter rules was on your laundry list of taboo strategies.

It is a rough list of some concepts that have been used in real life. The fact that you state that it is taboo probably indicates that you disagree with one or two of these proposals. What would you do instead?

 

[Nads Gone Bads]

Let the homeless sleep at the Fort York barracks, Milne House, Scadding Cabin and Casa Loma.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

Um, these are human beings. Someone's brother, son, daughter, uncle... have you people have no compassion? Your clearly sheltered from the real world and possess little life experience to be making such disturbing, judgmental statements about a troubled segment of our society.

 

[adma]

Let the homeless sleep at the Fort York barracks, Milne House, Scadding Cabin and Casa Loma.

Ah, "Milne House"...another geographic hint that it's Mystery White Boy we're dealing with. (Given said geography, one wonders if it's a Minnan-Wong minion trolling.)

 

[alklay]

Where on earth are the moderators?!

 

[Urban Shocker]

If Osgoode's good enough for the homeless to eat in, surely it's good enough for the homeless to sleep in. Better for them to be indoors than on benches and in boxes in the square.

... and even better, to follow your logic, to get them off of the Square and into the Council Chamber.

 

[Urban Shocker]

The square is not meant for sleeping, in boxes, in tents, on benches, whatever. That is an abuse of public space and while that continues to occur on a nightly basis, attempts at beautification are ridiculous bordering on obscene.

People keep talking about what the Square is "meant to be" used for, as if times and circumstances don't change. But times and circumstances have changed since the Square was built, and the homeless presence there is now impossible to ignore ( though some are trying to ) and that reflects accurately on our civic responsibility to deal with larger issues.

 

[Urban Shocker]

All people are not free to sleep in the square anymore than all people are free to pull up the flowers or eat the trees in public parks. All are abuse of public space.

That's not true - Not Far From The Tree has been harvesting fruit from trees in public parks and on public property ( as well as private ), for distribution to people in need, since 2008. Here's their website, with more details, including a map:

http://www.rhok.org/problems/not-far-tree-public-fruit-tree-map-0

 

[condovo]

That's not true - Not Far From The Tree has been harvesting fruit from trees in public parks and on public property ( as well as private ), for distribution to people in need, since 2008. Here's their website, with more details, including a map:

http://www.rhok.org/problems/not-far-tree-public-fruit-tree-map-0

An excellent initiative that doesn't harm the trees. Perfect.