Multiple Victims of Shooting in Scarborough

[Max Sterling]

"all you have to do is watch the news...."

Oh man...this is gold!

I suppose you don't like to see and hear what's happening in Toronto then? And I guess you don't like crime statistics and facts either then that happen prove me right.

M. Sterling,

Most criminals being black =/= (does not equal) a significant proportion of blacks being criminals.

There are over 200,000 black people in Toronto, living all over and with completely different backgrounds.

To suggest that black people need to be better parents and stop having as many children is like saying that white people need to stop invading middle eastern countries. Nations led by white people have led almost every single invasion in the middle east over the past century, and this is a FACT!!!

I'll narrow it down in your terms: Blacks don't kill people, rotten individuals kill people.

After the Eaton Centre shooting I saw a fat white woman openly harassing a black man at the Eaton Centre. He was at some coffee stand serving people, making an honest living, and she just yells at him 'go home! your kind is not wanted here! you are all fucking criminals!'... the guy just stood there, smiled gently, and continued serving coffee to the crowd.

What you are doing by categorising 'black people' as if they all somehow belonged to the same community is illogical, and since you are accusing them of a series of terrible things, you shouldn't be surprised if people rightly take offence.

I agree that rotten people kill people. The only problem is that the majority of rotten individuals doing the killing in Toronto happen to be black. So why try to hide this fact?

And I also agree that the vast majority of blacks in Toronto are probably decent people and law abiding. But the issue is that the portion of individuals within black communities that are bad and are criminals is MUCH, MUCH HIGHER than any other group/ethnicity in the city by a HUGE margin.

According to wiki, there's about 5+ million people living in Toronto, the GTA and outer surrounding cities like Vaughn, Mississauga, Brampton etc. in the CMA. There's about 352,000 blacks living within this whole region. That means blacks make up only about 7% of population in this vast area yet guess what? Last year they accounted for like at least 50-60% of murder victims, the majority of murder suspects and virtually all the gun crime in the city/GTA/CMA.

So one relatively TINY group of people that make up 7% of population committed more murder and gun crime than the other 93% non-black population and you're telling me there's not something seriously wrong here?? >_>

Just look at the murder map here for 2013:

http://www.cbc.ca/toronto/features/homicide2013/

Again, 7% black population make up just about half the murder victims. The other 93% or 4.7 MILLION people living in the CMA make up the other half. You don't find something wrong with this??

 

[RC8]

Everyone is well aware of that fact, but looking at their skin colour only tells you a very tiny part of the story, and it's hardly worth emphasising anymore.

One only needs to look as far as Hamilton to see widespread 'white' crime.

While there are no doubt cultural elements prevalent in some vulnerable black communities that contribute to elevated crime rates, the social class that these communities belong to behaves violently - black or non-black - elsewhere in Canada.

Also, I don't believe there is such a thing as a homogeneous 'black community'. My Nigerian friends always kept to themselves, and my Caribbean friends likewise. It would be like suggesting Koreans, Chinese, and Vietnamese belong to the same community, or that Argentinians, Irish, and Ukranians are all the same.

The problem is not that you are narrowing crime down to the black community, but that you are stopping there. The main sources of criminal activity can be narrowed down much further, and race becomes much less relevant as you do.

 

[TheKingEast]

Its not the guns its the PEOPLE. Why is it that 95-99% of all gun crime every single year in Toronto involves young black males? We have plenty of non-blacks living in the exact same neighborhoods as blacks do yet somehow few if any non-black kids grow up with feeling of needing to carry a gun and using it at the drop of the hat anytime, anywhere without any regard for anyone around them.

You deal with the black population in Toronto and you solve the gun crime problem. Simple as that. Everyone knows this is the problem and it all stems from too many black parents who do a horrible job of raising their kids and keeping them in line. Add all these kids together along with black culture and this is what you get. Aggressive young black males who will fight and kill for pretty much any reason.

I'll explain to you why you're a goofball.

1) The Yorkdale shooting was between 2 Vietnamese gangs, yet your solution was to target blacks. Because clearly, dealing with the black population would have avoided 2 Vietnamese gangs from acquiring guns and shooting each other in a mall parking lot.

2) "too many black parents who do a horrible job of raising their kids and keeping them in line"... another inflammatory and bigoted comment.

3) " Add all these kids together along with black culture and this is what you get"... what the hell is black culture? Murder? Another bigoted comment.

I have no problem looking at the numbers and seeing that a disproportionate amount of gun crime in Toronto is black related, but to sit there and make ridiculously ignorant, sweeping generalziations about an entire racial group is bullshit. Just based on your comments you have no idea what your'e talking about. This is a far more complex problem than you think. If you could open your eyes for a second, gun crime is not a racial problem..only an intellectually lazy person would think this way.

If you don't want to be labeled a bigot, then don't say bigoted shit.

 

[Peepers]

I'll explain to you why you're a goofball.

1) The Yorkdale shooting was between 2 Vietnamese gangs, yet your solution was to target blacks. Because clearly, dealing with the black population would have avoided 2 Vietnamese gangs from acquiring guns and shooting each other in a mall parking lot.

.

We know that the victim was Vietnamese but the fact is no information has been released to suggest that this altercation was between 2 Vietnamese gangs - in fact Toronto Police have not (for some reason?) given any description of the shooter(s).

Today CTV reported that not far from the shooting site Toronto Police were involved in what was described as a "high risk take down" that had reporters speculating if it was related to the shooting (no link established as yet). The "take-down" was at a large housing complex in the Kipling and Dixon area. A housing complex which is well known for its informal name "little Mogadishu" as it is home to the largest Somalian population in Toronto.

I think we all need to wait for all the facts to come in before we start calling each other "goofballs".

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=895398&playlistId=1.1218393&binId=1.815892&playlistPageNum=1

 

[Admiral Beez]

By the last few replies I could have sworn the shooting involved a group of black men. Interesting.

It was telling how quickly it went that way. Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

 

[Memph]

So what's the proportion of people in poverty who are black and how does that compare to the proportion of murders committed by blacks?

 

[Admiral Beez]

So what's the proportion of people in poverty who are black and how does that compare to the proportion of murders committed by blacks?

Can we stop using skin colour alone to define the criminals? Would we put Vietnamese and Japanese together when we generalize about Asian crime? I'm a white immigrant from the UK, but culturally have little in common with recent white immigrants from Russia or eastern Europe.

It's perfectly fine to look for commonalities in all forms, including skin colour in order to find correlations and possible causation, but It's sloppy writing to just say "blacks" since the group is much, much too wide. Let's dig a little deeper.

 

[ShonTron]

Thanks, Beez. You make some good points. Things are never simple as many would like to frame them.

I was just about to close the thread as I am bothered by some of the comments above, especially by those who otherwise don't have much to contribute to the forum but have lots to say here.

And of course, you can dig even deeper than just being more specific than particular ethnicities or countries of origin (though it's a starting point, especially if you understand what Somalia has gone through the last two decades).

 

[urbandreamer]

On topic: the dead gangster (or rather, drug dealer) had an extensive criminal history:

2012:
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/07/crime-ring-trafficked-drugs-between-bc-and-ontario-cops

TORONTO - Police have arrested 10 people after breaking up an alleged organized crime ring that was apparently making a decent commission trafficking drugs between B.C. and Ontario.

Investigators in both provinces swooped in this week and dismantled the group, seizing more than $2 million worth of marijuana, property and cash as they wrapped up a seven-month, joint-forces investigation dubbed Project Lie-See.

2008:
http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=52cc10f3-2f96-4208-979a-308dd8cfbdc6

By The Calgary Herald June 14, 2008



A tip has helped Calgary police seize more than $150,000 worth of drugs, weapons and money over a two-day period.

The real question: Why is a convicted drug trafficker on the streets still?

 

[TrickyRicky]

Guns are definately a problem in our city. But let's look back at the post I made last year. Conversation on this topic will flare up when a new incident comes up but the reality is that the total number of homicides in the city will be at or below the 10 year average by the end of the year.

The talk of racial minorities is fine watercooler conversation and certain communties have real problems, and yet (while I'm not suggesting a link) the murder rate is declining as the percentage of visible minorities in the city increases.

 

[Memph]

Can we stop using skin colour alone to define the criminals? Would we put Vietnamese and Japanese together when we generalize about Asian crime? I'm a white immigrant from the UK, but culturally have little in common with recent white immigrants from Russia or eastern Europe.

It's perfectly fine to look for commonalities in all forms, including skin colour in order to find correlations and possible causation, but It's sloppy writing to just say "blacks" since the group is much, much too wide. Let's dig a little deeper.

Does anyone have stats on any ethnic group or subgroup then in terms of what percentage of people in poverty are from that group?

 

[Peepers]

and yet (while I'm not suggesting a link) the murder rate is declining as the percentage of visible minorities in the city increases.

I don't think that there is any statistical information to support this. While it is true that in the relatively short term, murder rates have been stabilizing or slightly on the decline if we take a longer look at violent crime rates in Canada we can see that there has been a dramatic five-fold increase in all violent crimes (which include murder) during this period.

The Canada of the early 60's was a very different Canada of today!

from Wikipedia:

 

[doady]

Can we stop using skin colour alone to define the criminals? Would we put Vietnamese and Japanese together when we generalize about Asian crime? I'm a white immigrant from the UK, but culturally have little in common with recent white immigrants from Russia or eastern Europe.

Skin colour is probably a major factor I think. Black people are discriminated the same way, regardless of their actual background. When police engage in racial profiling for example, it doesn't matter if the victims are Jamaican or Kenyan, all that matters is that they are black. I think the historic and ongoing discrimination is the root cause for the problems we see in the black communities here, as it is with aboriginal communities elsewhere in Canada. Why were most of Robert Pickton's victims aboriginal women? Discrimination has a huge effect.

 

[Peepers]

Skin colour is probably a major factor I think. Black people are discriminated the same way, regardless of their actual background. When police engage in racial profiling for example, it doesn't matter if the victims are Jamaican or Kenyan, all that matters is that they are black. I think the historic and ongoing discrimination is the root cause for the problems we see in the black communities here, as it is with aboriginal communities elsewhere in Canada. Why were most of Robert Pickton's victims aboriginal women? Discrimination has a huge effect.

I don't know to what degree it is a factor but I would agree to a certain extent discrimination play's a part and the number one source of discrimination is our Police Force with their illegal "Carding program".

Every day dozens of young men (mostly black) are arbitrarily stopped by Toronto Police for no reason whatsoever as part of their carding program (in complete violation of Charter Rights).

They ask the detained youth's all kinds of intrusive questions that are none of their business such as "are your parents separated". This information is fed into the Police computerized database and suddenly a black youth who was just minding his own business becomes "known to police". When that young man applies for his first job this chance encounter will turn up in a police check and he will probably be turned down for the job!

Is it any wonder so many turn to crime? What choice do they have if they cannot even get their first job?

If we treat someone from a very young age as a criminal by randomly stopping them on the streets and subjecting them to interrogation should we be surprised when they grow up to be criminals?

I think we need to do away with Carding and with the TAVIS program because they are doing more harm then good. An example of how these programs have backfired was captured on a TCHC security camera. A group of young black youth's were on their way to a mentoring program when they were stopped (illegally) by TAVIS officers. One of Bill Blair's Goons actually punched one of the kid's in the head! Thankfully the assault was captured on video and the innocent youth were exonerated otherwise they would have ended up with a prison sentences and their futures destroyed! Of course nothing happened to the thuggish cops - Bill Blair protected them as he always does. So what did Blair do? He pressured TCHC to fire managers who he suspected were responsible for leaking the video to the media!

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight...after_toronto_star_story_on_teens_arrest.html

 

[historydude2012]

I don't think that there is any statistical information to support this. While it is true that in the relatively short term, murder rates have been stabilizing or slightly on the decline if we take a longer look at violent crime rates in Canada we can see that there has been a dramatic five-fold increase in all violent crimes (which include murder) during this period.

The Canada of the early 60's was a very different Canada of today!

Out of curiousity how likely were people to report rape, child abuse or assaults back in then? In that similar train of thought when you compare 1962 to 2007 I would expect the number of violent crime charges available has increased.

Your chart shows the rate of violent crimes being higher in 2007 than in 1962. If it is the case that the higher rate of violent crimes has anything to do with the homicide rate then why is it that this chart http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2012001/article/11692/c-g/11692-chart10-eng.jpg shows that the rate of homicides in 1981 was higher than it was in 2007. Based on the direction of this wikipedia chart shouldn't we expect the opposite?