OCCheetos
Active Member
Yes, it should, but that goes further into the realm of being unrealistic than even MOOSE's proposals.
It's the best we've got left and still relatively cheap.
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Moose Rail (National Capital Region)
- Thread starter SaugeenJunction
- Start date
Yes, it should, but that goes further into the realm of being unrealistic than even MOOSE's proposals.
micheal_can
Senior Member
But, a new bridge in the right locations could solve everyone's problem. This is the government taking a cheap way out instead of doing it right.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Gotta disagree on this one, vehemently. If anything, with a lighter load rating (this was built to full freight multiple steam loco hauled) , there's capacity to double the existing structure, either vertically or laterally. The CTA would never allow the decommissioning of this structure unless severely damaged.
I was just glimpsing through MOOSE' website (the PoW Bridge and MOOSE are two separate issues) and saw this:
https://www.letsgomoose.ca/media/
It would of course have to be a decision of the CTA and/or NCC and others on this. And any future use would be under catenary if the CTA agreed to an application for re-use.
Note the use of the term "cantilevered". Been done many times to other bridges of similar ilk. The original and centre RoW could be reserved for mainline D/EMUs, and the cantilevered sections (sym or assymetric) for LRT with the possibility of the centre way being shared. I could see a symmetrical cantilever being far more easy to approve by the CTA et al if the present way remains mainline but with load and carriage gauge provisos applying.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Whether it's MOOSE or Joseph Potvin is irrelevant. The difference in who walks in the door at City Hall's offices is hardly substantive on this topic. I would be surprised if MOOSE didn't try to pitch someone at the city. I'd be surprised if they accepted. And they provided the support that MOOSE claims in their literature.
And if those meetings took place that there are some city officials and possibly MOOSE representatives who need to explain why their lobbying wasn't recorded.
Ummm no. You can't just claim to be a stakeholder who needs to be engaged just because you have a glossy brochure. If that was the standard, every nutbar in town would be challenging every project that had a budget more than $5. The transit and bus operators of neighbouring municipalities are actual stakeholders who need to know what Ottawa plans to do with transit. A company that doesn't even have a feasibility study on their concept done, with no significant corporate or government backing isn't.
If you've worked in government at all, and dealt with stakeholders for a large project, claims like these aren't uncommon. But the ones that get a meeting usually have billions in the bank and a lot more intellectual horsepower.
kEiThZ
Superstar
And MOOSE proponents go from arguing that existing assets should be used to suggesting we demolish them in a handful of posts. That was quick.....
You can mail your cheque for the quarter to half billion dollar required to build this to:
City of Ottawa
Accounts Receivable Unit
P.O. Box 3441
Ottawa, ON. K1P 1J5
More to the point, it does the job. And that's all that is needed. STO is also planning on coming over the Alexandria bridge with their LRT to connect to the Confederation Line at Rideau. I'd say we'll be well covered for transit crossings at that point. Why would you build more than what is necessary for the job?
It makes no sense for OC Transpo to cross the river in my books. If you arrive from east or west, you'll transfer at Bayview and again at Tache-UQO? Dumb. Have Gatineau send their LRTs across and have Bayview become interchange for the Confederation Line, Trillium Line and STO. We also need to encourage Gatineau to convert the Rapibus corridor to LRT. This is something I think Ottawa has been failing on. That would make getting across the bridge so much better.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
@OCCheetos
I'd still like to know why/how you think MOOSE's plans can be accomodated when we're months away from tendering construction. You clearly think the delta on work that has to be done isn't substantial enough to delay construction. So I'd like to know what you think would be needed to accomodate MOOSE and how long you think that work would take.
I'd still like to know why/how you think MOOSE's plans can be accomodated when we're months away from tendering construction. You clearly think the delta on work that has to be done isn't substantial enough to delay construction. So I'd like to know what you think would be needed to accomodate MOOSE and how long you think that work would take.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Just digging on the engineering background of the Prince of Wales Bridge (Ottawa/Hull), and there's every indication of it being built to ample specs for the time, and still for today's needs, but tripped across this legal reference: (underlining is mine for clarification)
Elsewhere, there's reference of the Prov of Que owning the stretch now contested as being 'severed' on the Ottawa side. How that percolates through ownership sales is a good question, but the phrase of interest in this case is: “for the general advantage of Canada”.
Very interesting...
Post Script: Curious, for a number of reasons, not least the reference above, which I'm looking to verify at source:
CFQG =
Quebec Gatineau Railway
STO =
Société de transport de l'Outaouais
http://www.ottawalife.com/article/canadas-earliest-and-most-recent-railway-scandals?c=9
Elsewhere, there's reference of the Prov of Que owning the stretch now contested as being 'severed' on the Ottawa side. How that percolates through ownership sales is a good question, but the phrase of interest in this case is: “for the general advantage of Canada”.
Very interesting...
Post Script: Curious, for a number of reasons, not least the reference above, which I'm looking to verify at source:
https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/82-r-2012
CFQG =
Quebec Gatineau Railway
STO =
Société de transport de l'Outaouais
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Allandale25
Senior Member
Where have you see it publicly reported that the City has withdrawn their appeal? Must have missed that.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Yes, I had it inverted. The appeal to Cabinet was withdrawn. I guess they're not going to tread where the court will. The order still stands until heard by the court. More on this later.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-court-lrt-bridge-prince-of-wales-1.4647596
kEiThZ
Superstar
Just a reminder. MOOSE has been talking about building something for 7 years.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-area-commuter-rail-gathers-steam-1.1003316
Before Ottawa got a shovel in the ground for the Confederation Line. Before Harper won his third term. Before Kathleen Wynne became premier. Before Obama won his second term. Rob Ford was settling in at City Hall. 2011 was the year Osama Bin Laden was killed. And LMFAO, Adele and Pitbull were dominating the Top 40.
"But hey guys. It's right around the corner. Trust us. Somebody just has to fund the feasibility plan to tell us if we can even do this."
To those of you that still believe this schtick. I just want to know if you're this gullible in real life. And if so I've got a bridge in Ottawa to sell you....
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-area-commuter-rail-gathers-steam-1.1003316
Before Ottawa got a shovel in the ground for the Confederation Line. Before Harper won his third term. Before Kathleen Wynne became premier. Before Obama won his second term. Rob Ford was settling in at City Hall. 2011 was the year Osama Bin Laden was killed. And LMFAO, Adele and Pitbull were dominating the Top 40.
"But hey guys. It's right around the corner. Trust us. Somebody just has to fund the feasibility plan to tell us if we can even do this."
To those of you that still believe this schtick. I just want to know if you're this gullible in real life. And if so I've got a bridge in Ottawa to sell you....
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Allandale25
Senior Member
Thanks for clarifying and correcting. So when is the federal court expected to rule? That's the only oursoutstan major legal action right?
micheal_can
Senior Member
When did they first suggest the Confederation line?
OCCheetos
Active Member
Well actually, they are on the registry (once).
Either Mr. Potvin was greatly exaggerating about how much support he has, or other instances of lobbying weren't recorded, but that's what's on record^
...demolition for the purpose of replacing it with a better bridge. I fail to see how them being a MOOSE proponent is relevant though.
Ideally, we could send trains across the bridge from both sides and reduce transfers for everyone, but it's hard to say how difficult that will be at this point.
Generally, it's best if the Trillium Line crosses into Gatineau since there's the potential for a station pretty much right across the road from Terasses de la Chaudiere and a short walk away for Place des Portages which is where the majority of commuters from Ottawa go and so they wouldn't need to make another transfer once getting to Gatineau. Also, both the routes 44 and 293 originate in the south end of Ottawa (which is also where the Trillium Line originates) and cross into Gatineau, so there might be some ridership patterns worth looking at there.
I'm going to admit and accept that I'm dead wrong on this point. I have no doubts that MOOSE is going to try whatever they can to get their plans accommodated but I have no idea how they'll actually go about doing that.
That said, a list of things that would need to be accommodated:
- A connector track between the Beachburg Subdivision and the Ellwood subdivision corridor so that inbound MOOSE trains could head North
- Reconstruction of the Heron road overpass to accommodate double tracking and a second platform at Mooney's Bay (an island platform would be ideal, but would take up way more space than necessary)
- Double tracking between Mooney's Bay and across the Rideau River
- Double tracking from Carleton and through the Dow's Lake tunnel (which would require widening)
- Widening the of the trench between Carling and Gladstone and the addition of a second platform at Carling
- Either the re-grading of the track at Bayview, or a bypass around the station.
Attachments
kEiThZ
Superstar
The Confederation Line is a result of the cancellation of the last LRT plan in December 2006 by the previous mayor (Larry O'Brien). The concept for a tunneled LRT was presented in November 2007. Council approval and contract award happened in December 2012. Construction started in 2013. So it'll be about 11 years (give or take a few months) from the presentation of the idea of a tunneled LRT to actual start of service. And that's for a project with funding, support from the province and feds, and a city agency that owns all the corridors. Mr. Potvin still doesn't have the cash to get a feasibility study done, something the City of Ottawa did in a few months in 2007.
You're only thinking of what needs to be built. And already none of this is trivial. Every single item on your list requires engineering analysis to be done and deliverables to be listed on the Statement of Work to be contracted against in the Trillium Stage 2 Tender. And that's all assuming that such a massive change in the use of the corridor doesn't trigger a requirement for another EPR/EA. The contract package that the city staff would have planned on awarding would need a major re-write, after all that engineering work was done. So again, I am wondering why you think all that could be accommodated without any delay to the start of construction?
As it stands right now, if the city even wanted to make a deal with MOOSE, they don't have the financing or the staff to even begin negotiations. The absolute best case scenario I can imagine would be about a year of delay and that is with everybody working at lightning speed and MOOSE coming over with a gigantic chequebook and rubber stamp. In reality, I would expect substantial negotiation with MOOSE, and lots of analysis, and about 2-3 years of delay to the start of construction. So with that in mind, I ask again, how does this actually benefit anyone who lives and pays taxes in Ottawa?
I don't see how sending trains over from Ottawa reduces transfers. It only reduces transfers for one specific group: Trillium Line riders. It adds a transfer for everybody else. The bulk of riders arriving at Bayview are coming from the Confederation Line. It makes no sense to have them transfer on to the Trillium Line for one stop and then again on to the Gatineau LRT. Transfering in Gatineau also screws over Gatineau to Ottawa commuters. They have to get off their LRT, transfer to the Trillium Line and then transfer one stop later onto the Confederation Line. Heck, Gatineau understands this and that's why they are proposing to cross the bridge and connect at Bayview. I just wish they'd have considered conversion of the Rapibus corridor so that Rapibus riders (which includes some traffic from Ottawa) don't incur an extra transfer on top of everything else. Would think that conversion could be done relatively cheaply too, since they have the corridors and they aren't planning on building a light metro with huge stations like Ottawa did.
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OCCheetos
Active Member
Sooner or later the Trillium Line will need to be double tracked, that's a given. While we're at it why not get the private sector to pay for those infrastructure upgrades? In any case, I can't really say that they would benefit all that much, but they wouldn't exactly suffer either, at least not in the way you've described in the past. At most, they get millions of dollars of infrastructure upgrades that would otherwise be done by the city sometime in the next decade anyway, and then they'd have a train they could take to say, Wakefield or something. At worst, they have to deal with another year of construction which is going to happen anyway.
What routing would you propose for the Gatineau LRT then? As it stands I think most people are guessing that Bayview will be the terminating point of one of Gatineau's lines originating from the West. Why is anyone from Ottawa going to need to transfer to a train going Westwards in Gatineau?
Again, the most common destination for those commuting to Gatineau from Ottawa are Terasses and Place des Portages, both a short walk from the end of a rail spur that leads off from the Prince of Wales bridge and is a perfect place for a Trillium Line station. Also, a Trillium Line train is likely to have a higher capacity than that of one of Gatineau's LRT trains and would be better equipped to handle the large number of commuters who do head into Gatineau (only a fraction of which would end up actually transferring to get somewhere further inside Gatineau). Edit: It really depends on what type and size of vehicle Gatineau picks for their LRT, but a single Trillium Line train will have a capacity of upwards of 300 people.
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