Montréal Transit Developments

[p_xavier]

The Montreal Metro trains though are exceptionally narrow compared to most North American subway lines.

Our courts concluded years ago that it was racist to tell SIkhs they couldn't wear turbans. I'm amazed that anyone could defend such blatant and unnecessary racism in a free and democratic society. That those racists need to suspend the Charter of Rights to ban Sikhs from wearing turbans is proof of that!

The "religious influence in an authority figure" is simply that racists use to defend their unacceptable racism. We need to name, shame, and ban racists in our society.

Not sure what English Canada has to do with it - I'm seeing enough outrage from Francophones on my personal Facebook feed.

Race and religions are two.entirely different things. I don't get why would anyone confuse the two. The ban has high social acceptance in Québec (~75%) and much much less in the RoC.

Personal facebook is a hivemind so lets keep on subject.

 

[nfitz]

Race and religions are two.entirely different things. I don't get why would anyone confuse the two.

I've never seen a white Sikh. Also the definition of racism covers ethnic discrimination, not just skin colour - if not, then one could argue than there was no racism involved in discriminating against white European Jews!

The ban has high social acceptance in Québec (~75%)

That 75% of Quebeckers support such blatant racism doesn't mean that it should still happen. Tyranny of the majority is not acceptable. I'm surprised anyone is defending such clear and blatant discrimination that violates basic fundamental human rights.

We've probably exhausted the transit aspects of this discussion (though I'm baffled how one tells if the female bus driver is wearing a headscarf for personal rather than religious reasons - and how that impacts anyone), and if you feel the need to explain why it's okay to ban male Sikhs from working in certain jobs you should probably start a thread in https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/forums/politics-diplomacy.22/

People should be angry with this blatant racism. Not angry with those that oppose racists!

 

[Hopkins123]

It helps that the REM can't be challenged in courts basically, there's a law in place just for the REM. Most favour the REM except the oddballs and streetcar/LRT fanatics. It's mostly the mitigation plan for train replacement that upsets people to no end.

REM is nothing like LRT/Streetcar in the colloquial Toronto context though. It is more like Vancouver's Skytrain system or the Scarborough RT. Being fully grade separated from road traffic interference is a huge plus.

I do recall hearing about some early challenges to the REM from environmental activist groups though.

 

[p_xavier]

REM is nothing like LRT/Streetcar in the colloquial Toronto context though. It is more like Vancouver's Skytrain system or the Scarborough RT. Being fully grade separated from road traffic interference is a huge plus.

I do recall hearing about some early challenges to the REM from environmental activist groups though.

Yes and the rebuttual from the judge was harshingly good. https://globalnews.ca/news/3914056/...egal-challenge-to-rem-electric-train-network/

 

[smallspy]

This means that there'd only be 128 seats in a full length 76-metre long train, compared to a maximum of 850 seats in the current 260-metre long trains. I'm not sure how often they run a full 10-car consist though. Hmm, looking at some aerial photographs, I do see 10-car consists ... and even a 12-car consist in the yard - they don't actually run that do they?

Prior to the construction, weekday service was provided with 5 10-car trains with the remaining 8 cars sitting out as spares.

I believe that they still have a set of MultiLevels and ALP-45s running in service, but I don't know if they've changed the cycling to require another train.

Dan

 

[robmausser]

REM is nothing like LRT/Streetcar in the colloquial Toronto context though. It is more like Vancouver's Skytrain system or the Scarborough RT. Being fully grade separated from road traffic interference is a huge plus.

I do recall hearing about some early challenges to the REM from environmental activist groups though.

The Ottawa LRT is also nothing like LRT/Streetcar in the colloquial Toronto context either. Nor is the Edmonton or Calgary LRT. Its almost like, Toronto has a skewed vision of what an LRT is supposed to be.

 

[aquateam]

You are forgetting one thing, however.

Montréal already has an existing high-capacity subway system. This is simply another layer of transit that is being put down on top of it. A lot of experts have no qualms about the capacity of the line, either or day 1 or in the short-to-medium term because of this. It will provide more capacity than currently exists on the corridors that it is being built in.

Dan

There have actually been many concerns raised about the capacity of the REM, especially on the northern end. They are replacing rush hour double-deckers with significantly smaller trains. And passengers from the Mascouche line (again, double decker commuter trains) will need to transfer into already-packed trains. There is less peak hour seated capacity with the REM than the commuter lines it replaces. (Note: CDPQ may have modified their plans as mitigation to address some of these issues since this was published.)

I had posted in the Downtown Relief Line that the CDPQi is currently looking for an expert firm to analyse transit infrastructure projects outside Québec and another one for Québec projects. New REM lines proposals should be assessed in 18 months max. The timingof such expertise is odd because it would fit with the new orientations of Queen's Park for the DRL. The CDPQi had already offered the Wynne government to help build/finance Toronto infrastructure but she declined.

It also happens to be the same timeline as Vancouver's Millenium line extension, which has started the bidding phase. So it's not necessarily related to the DRL.

 

[p_xavier]

There have actually been many concerns raised about the capacity of the REM, especially on the northern end. They are replacing rush hour double-deckers with significantly smaller trains. And passengers from the Mascouche line (again, double decker commuter trains) will need to transfer into already-packed trains. There is less peak hour seated capacity with the REM than the commuter lines it replaces. (Note: CDPQ may have modified their plans as mitigation to address some of these issues since this was published.)



It also happens to be the same timeline as Vancouver's Millenium line extension, which has started the bidding phase. So it's not necessarily related to the DRL.

Since the CDPQ owns 30% of Bombardier and part of the Canada line, I wouldn't be surprised of a bid either.

 

[smallspy]

There have actually been many concerns raised about the capacity of the REM, especially on the northern end. They are replacing rush hour double-deckers with significantly smaller trains. And passengers from the Mascouche line (again, double decker commuter trains) will need to transfer into already-packed trains. There is less peak hour seated capacity with the REM than the commuter lines it replaces. (Note: CDPQ may have modified their plans as mitigation to address some of these issues since this was published.)

There have concerns raised, but a lot of them were made based on assumptions that have been shown to be incorrect. That article, for instance, grossly over-exaggerates how many people fit on the commuter trains and understates the REM's capacity. If you plug the correct numbers into his calculations, the outcome is far better than he portrays.

That said, yes, there are going to be issues with the loss of existing infrastructure versus its current use, and there will be more transfers. I think, however, that these issues are outweighed by the better system that will be in service. Trains will come far more frequently than is capable by the current commuter rail system.

Dan

 

[tayser]

You are forgetting one thing, however.

Montréal already has an existing high-capacity subway system. This is simply another layer of transit that is being put down on top of it. A lot of experts have no qualms about the capacity of the line, either or day 1 or in the short-to-medium term because of this. It will provide more capacity than currently exists on the corridors that it is being built in.

Dan

I've no doubt that it's calibrated well for the task in Montreal, to clarify from my original post, if we did use an off-the-shelf system like how Montreal and Sydney have done (with obvious city-specific calibrations in each), the passenger carrying task is likely to be bigger for this single line that will interface with all but 1 of the radial lines to the south,east and north of Melbourne. The trajectory for the existing system - the radial lines from the city through the inner, middle and outer 'burbs, is to move to higher frequency and longer trains.

I think I've posted this elsewhere but if you take Toronto's existing subway fleet, they're almost a pound-for-pound dimension match for Melbourne's existing fleet - 6 cars of around 22m each, ~3m wide (the difference in passenger carrying capacity is in the less seats in Toronto's subway trains versus Melbourne's). The upgrades, for us, are going to 7 cars (eventually able to go to 10 with surface station platform extension works - the new metro underground stations are all being built with 220m platforms from day 1) - trains will go from ~130-140m in length to 160m and capacities across the fleet types will go from 800-900 (we have three different train types, with more internal configurations which affect their crush load) to 1100 (crush loads across old and new sets are higher) and when you have so much more capacity (and eventually passengers) on the radial lines, this new orbital/loop line will probably need train sets around the 800-1000 mark as well.

 

[p_xavier]

The mandate for new transit lines was officially sent to the CDPQi by the Québec government to study 2 REM extensions and two new REM/streetcar lines. Studies to be finished by 2020. The last one was planned to be a streetcar but since REM lines can be built way faster, the Québec has recently decided to give it to the Caisse. The Caisse will study which mode of transportation is more effecient/cost effective (which should be REM).

Plante fumes as Quebec considers possible expansion of REM

Montreal's mayor says the move would strain the métro's already congested Orange Line and betrays "a lack of understanding of the reality."

montrealgazette.com

 

[nfitz]

Interesting. Chambly/St-Jean-sur-Richelieu almost sounds kind of like the old south-shore radial streetcar that they closed years ago!

I'm not sure I'm understanding the Montreal one ... sounds like it runs near the Green line, and then that proposed LRT they've been talking about for 30-40 years from Radisson/Honore Beugrand to Point-Aux-Trembles.

Hmm, I'm not sure how I see that's not 2 lines rather than 4 ... spurs? Is there a good image of the proposed alignments?

 

[p_xavier]

Interesting. Chambly/St-Jean-sur-Richelieu almost sounds kind of like the old south-shore radial streetcar that they closed years ago!

I'm not sure I'm understanding the Montreal one ... sounds like it runs near the Green line, and then that proposed LRT they've been talking about for 30-40 years from Radisson/Honore Beugrand to Point-Aux-Trembles.

Hmm, I'm not sure how I see that's not 2 lines rather than 4 ... spurs? Is there a good image of the proposed alignments?

Yes, spurs or two lines depending how they count it.

 

[nfitz]

Cool! What street (or is it the 25) does that tramway run up that hits the end of the Blue line?

Is that a tramway coming off of Longueuil? Is that already approved?

Gosh, still no love for anything for that area west of Decarie, east of Dorval, past Angrinon, etc. Hard to see how even frequencies on the CP line are going to improve, with the REM having a station at Dorval and that spur along the 40.

 

[begratto]

Interesting. Chambly/St-Jean-sur-Richelieu almost sounds kind of like the old south-shore radial streetcar that they closed years ago!

Yes, they shut down the Montreal and Southern Counties streetcar in ... 1956.But the alignment would almost certainly not be the same one.

I'm not sure I'm understanding the Montreal one ... sounds like it runs near the Green line, and then that proposed LRT they've been talking about for 30-40 years from Radisson/Honore Beugrand to Point-Aux-Trembles.

Hmm, I'm not sure how I see that's not 2 lines rather than 4 ... spurs? Is there a good image of the proposed alignments?

There's no proposed alignments per se, just a mandate to find the most useful and cost-effective solution to provide service from the northeast of the city (Montréal-Nord, Rivière-des-Prairies and Pointe-aux-Trembles) to the city centre.