Michael Prue says it's time to reconsider Catholic school funding

[scarberiankhatru]

So by your reasoning, Catholic and Muslim schools should get funding (because they're diverse), but Jewish schools should not (since they're about 99.5% white)?

The question mark indicates that this is your reasoning, not mine.

People oppose the status of the Catholic boards for many reasons, but criticisms of them being niche boards indoctrinating a homogenous segment of society at taxpayers' expense are not necessarily valid for the elementary schools and definitely not valid for the high schools.

Most people do not send their kids to Catholic schools for a "religious environment" as would initially be the case in Muslim or Jewish boards; they send their kids there because they're Italian or Filipino and their family and friends go there, too, or they went there as kids themselves...these attitudes are to be expected when the separate board has been a reality for this long. Maybe if I was taught by Jesuits or nuns I'd approach the situation differently, but my high school was as diverse as any public high school - including religious diversity.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

So by your reasoning, Catholic and Muslim schools should get funding (because they're diverse), but Jewish schools should not (since they're about 99.5% white)?

IMO the argument from diversity isn't a good argument to make since catholic elementary schools prohibit non catholics from attending. a secular school that doesn't impose a religion on its student body and admits people from every walk of life can be more diverse.

it doesn't matter if catholic high schools allow non catholics to join. the issue is the religious aspect.

 

[CDL.TO]

I think my atheism/agnosticism is not based solely on my capacity for critical thinking. I'll credit my religious education to familiarizing myself with the logicial inconsistencies of theism. I know christianity/scripture a lot better than several believers whom I know and I think they find it unnerving.

Amen to that. Exactly the same situation for me. I was sent to a Evangelical Christian school for almost all of my elementary years for the stronger discipline and more challenging curriculum (my parents had no interest in the religious aspect, but they didn't see it as a bad thing either). It gave me a really strong base in the contents of the bible and Christian practices, enough that I am frequently shocked by the lack of knowledge of 'believers'.

Catholic School Sex Ed:

LOL!

 

[King of Kensington]

Remember that under Tory's plan religious schools had to follow the Ontario curriculum to get funding and have certified teachers, and they probably would have had the same restrictions on non-members teaching/attending. So I'm sure the Jewish high schools in Toronto would have attracted Jews from a large geographic area and a diversity of income levels and even attracted a good number of non-Jews whose parents thought they could get a good education from "the people of the book." So if non-Jews were allowed to attend and it had diversity, would it be OK in your view? Why the special right for Catholics?

Of course another possibility would be to keep the separate schools but remove all religious instruction and restrictions on enrollment and hiring and make them essentially secular, and see if the Catholic Church wants funding for "their" schools anymore.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

this kinda has a parallel to the bible being in every classroom in catholic schools...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhX2nyLGIhs


but there are good chapters in there. would they allow playboy magazine to be brought into schools simply because there isn't pornography on every page? maybe they can allow some of those hustler magazines with religious themes that larry flynt published during his born again christian days?

WWJD? (who would jesus do?)

 

[whatever]

Canada of 1850 is different than today for a lot of reasons. It doesn't take a lawyer to understand it isn't 'right' (whether legal or not, is a different matter) to fund Catholics but not the others.

But regardless of whether it's right or not we signed an agreement on the matter, and to unilaterally back out of it would undermine the value of other agreements that we may make today. If we're going to back out of the BNA Act then we need to do it bilaterally, in a way that Catholics can also agree to and sign off on.

name just one good thing that a catholic school could offer to its students that a secular school could never offer to its students.

I only ever attended Catholic schools so I can't speak to the capacity of secular schools, but my suspicion is that Catholic schools do a much better job of moral instruction. And that isn't to say that it's moral indoctrination (I don't follow the Church on any of it's push-button issues), but there was at least a natural place for it to be discussed. In honesty, what we tended to be led towards was something approaching more of a humanism rather than any sort of catechistical morality.

 

[digi]

At least the Catholic Church don't have qualms with science

In 1991 the Catholic church finally recognised that the earth is not the center of the universe....1991!!

but my suspicion is that Catholic schools do a much better job of moral instruction

...which is why the catholic schoolgirl uniform is a symbol of morality

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

But regardless of whether it's right or not we signed an agreement on the matter, and to unilaterally back out of it would undermine the value of other agreements that we may make today. If we're going to back out of the BNA Act then we need to do it bilaterally, in a way that Catholics can also agree to and sign off on.



I only ever attended Catholic schools so I can't speak to the capacity of secular schools, but my suspicion is that Catholic schools do a much better job of moral instruction. And that isn't to say that it's moral indoctrination (I don't follow the Church on any of it's push-button issues), but there was at least a natural place for it to be discussed. In honesty, what we tended to be led towards was something approaching more of a humanism rather than any sort of catechistical morality.

1) here we go. the argument from the constitution (IT'S IN THE CONSTITUTION!!!) does it ever occur that just because it's in the constitution doesn't necessarily mean it's ethical, moral and just? if the right to own slaves was in the constitution, would you defend that right simply because it was in the constitution? acts of parliament should always be adjusted, amended and updated to reflect moral and ethical upgrades in society.

2) i don't see where this "much better job of moral instruction" is. i remember a time when i asked a teacher why women can't be priests and i was told because they are unclean. imagine what picture that paints in the mind of a young person. each class was stocked with bibles which we were told that are holy books. if you open that book and actually read it, alot of what you will read is far from moral. also, catholic highschool fostered such moral views that the gang members that attended my school incorporated the crucifix into their gang symbols.

and P.S, i also only ever attended catholic schools. i also went to church every sunday for a while. i also read the entire bible and still do read bible passages to remind my self why i should never be a religious person ever again.

the good will do good and the bad will do bad. for the good to do bad, that takes religion.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

name just one good thing that a catholic school could offer....

....the catholic schoolgirl uniform....a symbol of morality

is that how the virgin mary dressed? oops, my mistake. there's no such thing. jesus had siblings and they weren't born from virgin births. she was a virgin mary for a while though.

 

[afransen]

name just one good thing that a catholic school could offer to its students that a secular school could never offer to its students.

Competition. I think this keeps the public board on its toes. My high school had quite a few jews/protestants simply because the public schools in the area blew.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Competition. I think this keeps the public board on its toes. My high school had quite a few jews/protestants simply because the public schools in the area blew.

you can have separate competing boards or districts without the need for religious themes. i know of public schools that are doing way better than their catholic rivals nearby. and i say rivals because we were taught in school that the public schools are of lesser quality.

so in that sense, the competition view is a false dichotomy if you ask me. there's other options.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

sometimes i feel that the catholic experience helped make me the atheist i am today but i don't think it's quite true. i'm atheist about all the other religions and i didn't have to experience and be indoctrinated into them. i knew they were phony and didn't make any sense. the problem is that i was born into my former religion and state sponsored schooling amongst other things made it seem more true. the sheer power and influence of the catholic church which is supported financially through the canadian government (funding for schools) helped make it seem like the real deal.

it's the classic argument from authority, money & government support.

 

[Mot]

As a taxpayer who is gay I am deeply troubled by secular taxes supporting a hateful organization like the Catholic Church.

I am a survivor of the garbage that church teaches a gay kid about himself. You only need to look at religious dogma to see why gay teen suicide rates are so high. Supporting Catholic Schools in Canada is also supporting the church worldwide. In the US the Catholic Organizations are leaders in fighting against gay equal rights on issues from housing, fair employment to legally protecting our loved ones.

Let me quote some of the best from the ex Nazi Soldier leader of that church.

Pope Benedict XVI on homosexuality:
“Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.â€

“Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons†(October 1986)


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“Homosexual activity is not a complementary union, able to transmit life; and so it thwarts the call to a life of that form of self-giving which the Gospel says is the essence of Christian living. This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves; but when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent.â€

“Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons†(October 1986)


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“The Church teaches that respect for homosexual persons cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behavior or to legal recognition of homosexual unions. Legal recognition of homosexual unions or placing them on the same level as marriage would mean not only the approval of deviant behavior.â€

“Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons†(July 2003)


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'Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development."

“Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognitions to Unions Between Homosexual Persons†(July 2003)


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“There are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family. Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the natural moral law.â€

“Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons†(July 2003)


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“The various forms of the dissolution of matrimony today, like free unions, trial marriages and going up to pseudo-matrimonies by people of the same sex, are rather expressions of an anarchic freedom that wrongly passes for true freedom of man.â€
Speech by Pope Benedict XVI at the Basilica of St. John Lateran in Rome (June 6, 2005)


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“[T]he church, while deeply respecting the people in question, cannot admit to the seminary and the sacred orders those who practice homosexuality, present deeply rooted homosexual tendencies or support so-called gay culture. Those people find themselves, in fact, in a situation that presents a grave obstacle to a correct relationship with men and women. One cannot ignore the negative consequences that can stem from the ordination of people with deeply-rooted homosexual tendencies.â€

“Instruction concerning the criteria for the discernment of vocations with regard to persons with homosexual tendencies in view of their admission to the seminary and to Holy Orders†(Nov. 4, 2005, approved by Pope Benedict XVI on Aug. 31, 2005.)


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“If instead it is a case of homosexual tendencies that are merely the expression of a transitory problem, for example as in the case of an unfinished adolescence, they must however have been clearly overcome for at least three years before ordination as a deacon.â€

“Instruction concerning the criteria for the discernment of vocations with regard to persons with homosexual tendencies in view of their admisson to the seminary and to Holy Orders†(Nov. 4, 2005

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

if the church is against being gay, why do they teach you as a child that the reason why women can't be priests is because they are "unclean"? why do they perpetuate the myth of a virgin birth? why the hell do they hate cunt soo much?

 

[adma]

If you want proof of a virgin birth, look for parents who communicate to each other in Klingon. As everyone knows, there's no such thing as a non-virgin who communicates in Klingon