Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[44 North]

Sheppard is the next battle now that they killed the SRT.

I believe it will be coming back. Not with a vengeance or anything; but that the issue will be rearing its head again. Aside from the political opposition to the SELRT, one point to keep in mind is that we’ll have the SRT corridor becoming available. This is almost a quarter of the distance between Don Mills and McCowan, it’s perfectly suited for grade-separated RT, and it directly connects to STC. Perhaps we might see a proposal to convert Sheppard to Mark II, and to build the whole thing as Skytrain.

 

[GenerationW]

Just like you said the the bloor danforth would be built. Forgive me for not believing anything can happen.

Two people on Council with some influence and a few brain cells worked to get B-D on the agenda. If you believe Karygiannis and Mammo can do that with Sheppard, have fun believing.

 

[11th]

.. Perhaps we might see a proposal to convert Sheppard to Mark II, and to build the whole thing as Skytrain.

It's in the right direction, though I doubt either camps on the debate will settle with that.
There's the group that really wants in-median LRT on Sheppard - won't settle on anything that is grade-seperated. Then there's the other that really wants "subways" - won't settle on anything that is not underground.

 

[nfitz]

It's in the right direction, though I doubt either camps on the debate will settle with that.
There's the group that really wants in-median LRT on Sheppard - won't settle on anything that is grade-seperated. Then there's the other that really wants "subways" - won't settle on anything that is not underground.

I'm quite sure that the group that want in-median LRT would be fine with grade-separated if can be delivered for the same cost.

 

[BurlOak]

It's in the right direction, though I doubt either camps on the debate will settle with that.
There's the group that really wants in-median LRT on Sheppard - won't settle on anything that is grade-seperated. Then there's the other that really wants "subways" - won't settle on anything that is not underground.

Then, there is the third camp comprised of about 80% of Toronto's population who would be perfectly fine with grade-separated Vancouver style transit.

 

[BurlOak]

I'm quite sure that the group that want in-median LRT would be fine with grade-separated if can be delivered for the same cost.

Well if the in-median LRT crowd would have supported grade-separated transit (i.e. SRT connected to elevated Eglinton), then it would have saved $1B over what we are not doing. It seems that the in-median LRT crowd is so adamant that it must be in the median, that they are willing to pay an extra $1B to achieve it.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Then, there is the third camp comprised of about 80% of Toronto's population who would be perfectly fine with grade-separated Vancouver style transit.

Yeah... Except for the cost.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Well if the in-median LRT crowd would have supported grade-separated transit (i.e. SRT connected to elevated Eglinton), then it would have saved $1B over what we are not doing. It seems that the in-median LRT crowd is so adamant that it must be in the median, that they are willing to pay an extra $1B to achieve it.

You love these straw man arguments don't you.

We all know that you've been here long enough to understand why your comments regarding the Eglinton Scarbrough Crosstown LRT and Line 2 are disingenuous, due to their route histories.

 

[BurlOak]

Maybe it's just that the in-street LRT people are very poor at math. There was like a 20% chance that we would revert to in-street LRT and 80% chance of going with subway (numbers made up by me, but if you look at D. Ford and Tory vote added together, it is not far off). So we had about a 4 times better chance of spending the extra $1.5B than in saving the $1.5B. If we repeat this excercise a number of times (Eglinton East, Eglinton West, DRL, Sheppard LRT?, ?), we can expect to lose about $900M each time. If you asked me, spending $500M to save $1.5B seemed like a good deal. When the same scenario presents itself next in the Eglinton West / SmarTrack route selection, I wonder if we will again play Russian roulette with similar poor odds.

 

[salsa]

Well if the in-median LRT crowd would have supported grade-separated transit (i.e. SRT connected to elevated Eglinton), then it would have saved $1B over what we are not doing.

You're assuming that elevated was ever on the table in the first place, and that the extra cost amounts to much less than $1B. Instead we almost ended up with a completely underground LRT at a cost of $8B rather than $5.3B, paid for by raiding the funds from Finch and Sheppard.

 

[Rainforest]

Maybe it's just that the in-street LRT people are very poor at math. There was like a 20% chance that we would revert to in-street LRT and 80% chance of going with subway (numbers made up by me, but if you look at D. Ford and Tory vote added together, it is not far off). So we had about a 4 times better chance of spending the extra $1.5B than in saving the $1.5B. If we repeat this excercise a number of times (Eglinton East, Eglinton West, DRL, Sheppard LRT?, ?), we can expect to lose about $900M each time. If you asked me, spending $500M to save $1.5B seemed like a good deal. When the same scenario presents itself next in the Eglinton West / SmarTrack route selection, I wonder if we will again play Russian roulette with similar poor odds.

1) It was hard to predict the outcome of mayoral elections in advance.

2) Initially, it was expected that the replacement of SLRT with subway will cost only $0.5B extra.

3) Scarborough subway project got extra funding from the federal government and from the municipal property surtax. Thus, Finch and Sheppard LRT retained their committed funding.

It is very unlikely that elevated Eglinton would get the required extra funding from either of those sources.

4) It is not clear how much extra the elevated Eglinton would cost; it might be quite a bit more than $0.5B.

5) In the absence of DRL, both Eglinton LRT and Yonge subway would absolutely choke if the majority of Scarborough riders switched from BD subway to Eglinton LRT. And, those riders would switch if Eglinton and SLRT were connected.

6) It is not evident that SLRT (connected to Eglinton or not) is compatible with SmartTrack, as the latter requires double-tracking the Uxbridge sub.

 

[44 North]

Then, there is the third camp comprised of about 80% of Toronto's population who would be perfectly fine with grade-separated Vancouver style transit.

Agreed with TigerMaster and others that it’s disingenuous to bring up elevated rail on Eglinton. How would we know the public would or wouldn’t want it since it was never an option?

As well, your analysis of the different ‘camps’/’crowds’ doesn’t seem right. Our one opportunity for an elevated line (the SLRT) was ridiculed by the pro-subway crowd. The service quality was exactly the same as a subway, the line was longer, and more stations were offered - and they dissed it to high heaven, and chalked up its removal as a win against in-median.

Granted, I can’t exactly blame the people. I never saw one rendering of how the SLRT would look. And no press releases were given to the media with anything visual. Nobody knew what they were getting! I’d wager that very few in TO even know what contemporary elevated rail entails. Even on this forum people erroneously point to 80-year-old rusting masses hovering over inner city streets in Chicago or NYC.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I believe it will be coming back. Not with a vengeance or anything; but that the issue will be rearing its head again. Aside from the political opposition to the SELRT, one point to keep in mind is that we’ll have the SRT corridor becoming available. This is almost a quarter of the distance between Don Mills and McCowan, it’s perfectly suited for grade-separated RT, and it directly connects to STC. Perhaps we might see a proposal to convert Sheppard to Mark II, and to build the whole thing as Skytrain.

Of course. It takes around 1100 days to build a fully functioning LRT on grade. This should have been done, and I have no reason why we're waiting until 2023?

Two people on Council with some influence and a few brain cells worked to get B-D on the agenda. If you believe Karygiannis and Mammo can do that with Sheppard, have fun believing.

You mean people with influence like Norm Kelly, Ray Cho, MP Soo Wong, and Brad Duguid
http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-s...east-lrt-depends-on-results-of-city-election/

And this was just at election time. For you to reduce it to two quacks is disingenuous at best. You know damn well people want, something, anything to be built on Sheppard East

Stop trying to spin this. You can't have one opinion on the DRL and another on this. Either the city failed on both of them or they didn't. Sheppard should have been up and running in 2013, since it was confirmed already unlike the DRL which you love to beat the city over the head with.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

You love these straw man arguments don't you.

We all know that you've been here long enough to understand why your comments regarding the Eglinton Scarbrough Crosstown LRT and Line 2 are disingenuous, due to their route histories.

You're assuming that elevated was ever on the table in the first place, and that the extra cost amounts to much less than $1B. Instead we almost ended up with a completely underground LRT at a cost of $8B rather than $5.3B, paid for by raiding the funds from Finch and Sheppard.

1) It was hard to predict the outcome of mayoral elections in advance.

2) Initially, it was expected that the replacement of SLRT with subway will cost only $0.5B extra.

3) Scarborough subway project got extra funding from the federal government and from the municipal property surtax. Thus, Finch and Sheppard LRT retained their committed funding.

It is very unlikely that elevated Eglinton would get the required extra funding from either of those sources.

4) It is not clear how much extra the elevated Eglinton would cost; it might be quite a bit more than $0.5B.

5) In the absence of DRL, both Eglinton LRT and Yonge subway would absolutely choke if the majority of Scarborough riders switched from BD subway to Eglinton LRT. And, those riders would switch if Eglinton and SLRT were connected.

6) It is not evident that SLRT (connected to Eglinton or not) is compatible with SmartTrack, as the latter requires double-tracking the Uxbridge sub.

Agreed with TigerMaster and others that it’s disingenuous to bring up elevated rail on Eglinton. How would we know the public would or wouldn’t want it since it was never an option?

As well, your analysis of the different ‘camps’/’crowds’ doesn’t seem right. Our one opportunity for an elevated line (the SLRT) was ridiculed by the pro-subway crowd. The service quality was exactly the same as a subway, the line was longer, and more stations were offered - and they dissed it to high heaven, and chalked up its removal as a win against in-median.

Granted, I can’t exactly blame the people. I never saw one rendering of how the SLRT would look. And no press releases were given to the media with anything visual. Nobody knew what they were getting! I’d wager that very few in TO even know what contemporary elevated rail entails. Even on this forum people erroneously point to 80-year-old rusting masses hovering over inner city streets in Chicago or NYC.

So were saying it's okay because the public didn't know now? Come on. To be honest, this is on them. Why aren't they fighting for this LRT like you guys do on here? On Spacing, on steve's blog? You can clearly see the support the York subways to Wonderland and RH outside.


Start the SELRT. What are we waiting for?

 

[nfitz]

Well if the in-median LRT crowd would have supported grade-separated transit (i.e. SRT connected to elevated Eglinton), then it would have saved $1B over what we are not doing. It seems that the in-median LRT crowd is so adamant that it must be in the median, that they are willing to pay an extra $1B to achieve it.

I don't understand what you are saying here. We'd have saved a $billion by grade-separating Eglinton in Scarborough? No ...