Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[denfromoakvillemilton]

But once you have started it, especially because you can see the tracks, and the penalties involved and the way transit has been going (or not) in the city, would anyone dare cancel it?

Well it has to be past the point of return. I don't what that is for above ground. You are not wrong in you're posts, but this is Toronto.

 

[andrewpmk]

Well it has to be past the point of return. I don't what that is for above ground. You are not wrong in you're posts, but this is Toronto.

There is no way you could start this project now and have construction start before spring 2015. It takes a significant amount of time to award contracts, hire staff, etc. This is a dumb proposal, and my guess is that if either (a) Hudak gets elected or (b) transit taxes are passed, and city council has yet another debate and decides to build the Sheppard subway, then this will get killed. The only way I could see this happening is if Wynne abandons the transit tax idea and stays in office.

 

[ehlow]

There is no way you could start this project now and have construction start before spring 2015. It takes a significant amount of time to award contracts, hire staff, etc. This is a dumb proposal, and my guess is that if either (a) Hudak gets elected or (b) transit taxes are passed, and city council has yet another debate and decides to build the Sheppard subway, then this will get killed. The only way I could see this happening is if Wynne abandons the transit tax idea and stays in office.

Just because transit tax passes doesn't mean any of the the current LRTs will be changed to subways, even though you personally may wish for that. There are many, many other projects the money can go towards other than changing Sheppard East LRT into a Sheppard East subway extension.

Re: Palma, the reason it takes 10 years between plan & construction is because of the constantly changing plans!

 

[innsertnamehere]

Its also taking a while as the Liberals don't want to provide funding until a lot of their other transit projects are finished like the Bus lanes, UPX, union station, etc.

 

[andrewpmk]

Just because transit tax passes doesn't mean any of the the current LRTs will be changed to subways, even though you personally may wish for that. There are many, many other projects the money can go towards other than changing Sheppard East LRT into a Sheppard East subway extension.

Re: Palma, the reason it takes 10 years between plan & construction is because of the constantly changing plans!

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of city council changing its mind again. Look at Matlow's attempt to revive the Scarborough LRT, which requires the Sheppard LRT to be built (fortunately this failed). City council is divided almost evenly between subway supporters and LRT supporters and is about as dysfunctional as US Congress right now. You only need a few votes to change the plans again.

The transit tax is supposed to provide about 30 billion dollars. Very few jurisdictions with adequate transit funding build strange things like the Sheppard LRT. Obviously this sort of proposal only makes sense if you run out of money to finish the subway. This tax plus existing funding is so large that I think you could easily build Sheppard subway, make Eglinton a subway, build DRL and significantly improve GO.

 

[innsertnamehere]

... All the $30 billion is already accounted for in new projects.. no extra cash to build your fantasy projects..

 

[TheTigerMaster]

There is no way you could start this project now and have construction start before spring 2015..

I disagree. If Metrolinx has been doing the engineering work over the past two years, there's no reason they couldn't have shovels in the ground within the year.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of city council changing its mind again.

Council can change their mind all they want, but nobody is paying for this damn subway. The Liberals won't, the Conservatives won't and I doubt Council has the will to raise taxes to build it.

City council is divided almost evenly between subway supporters and LRT supporters and is about as dysfunctional as US Congress right now. You only need a few votes to change the plans again.

I hope you do realize that it's possible to support Light Rail while also supporting subways where there's a need for them.

 

[ehlow]

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of city council changing its mind again. Look at Matlow's attempt to revive the Scarborough LRT, which requires the Sheppard LRT to be built (fortunately this failed). City council is divided almost evenly between subway supporters and LRT supporters and is about as dysfunctional as US Congress right now. You only need a few votes to change the plans again.

The transit tax is supposed to provide about 30 billion dollars. Very few jurisdictions with adequate transit funding build strange things like the Sheppard LRT. Obviously this sort of proposal only makes sense if you run out of money to finish the subway. This tax plus existing funding is so large that I think you could easily build Sheppard subway, make Eglinton a subway, build DRL and significantly improve GO.

Of course it is possible for council to change it's mind again and again continuously, they could also cancel everything, and so could the provincial government. My point was that just because transit taxes happen, it doesn't automatically follow that the plan for a given route will switch technologies.

The implicit assumption you make is that subways are better, we would all like to build subways over LRT if only we had the money.

You have to recognize that for some people, LRT is actually their preferred choice for a given route, it's not something they are settling for due to lack of money, believe it or not. Just because money becomes available doesn't mean an LRT plan automatically becomes a subway. Sure, it's possible, but it's not automatic, there are actually reasons to stay with LRT for some routes, even if more money becomes available. It is true that LRT is generally cheaper, but that money can be spent on the tons of other projects in the Big Move, of which there is no end to the supply.

For example, there was money to build a Sheppard subway, but many Torontonians believe this was the wrong choice. There is no universal assumption that subways are better than LRTs for all routes, and that if we could only afford it we would want subways everywhere. For some routes, some people believe LRT is more appropriate.

 

[ehlow]

Council can change their mind all they want, but nobody is paying for this damn subway. The Liberals won't, the Conservatives won't and I doubt Council has the will to raise taxes to build it.


I hope you do realize that it's possible to support Light Rail while also supporting subways where there's a need for them.

That's right. It's even possible to support Subways, LRT, AND.. Buses!!! You can actually decide what technology is appropriate for different routes given things like ridership and cost/km.

 

[howl]

I disagree. If Metrolinx has been doing the engineering work over the past two years, there's no reason they couldn't have shovels in the ground within the year.

Metrolinx, while it is a government agency, doesn't have an unlimited budget. It needs to spread its projects out so the yearly budget and staff can manage it. I suspect the Crosstown is taking a lot of their time and money this year and next.

 

[howl]

Of course it is possible for council to change it's mind again and again continuously, they could also cancel everything, and so could the provincial government. My point was that just because transit taxes happen, it doesn't automatically follow that the plan for a given route will switch technologies.

The implicit assumption you make is that subways are better, we would all like to build subways over LRT if only we had the money.

You have to recognize that for some people, LRT is actually their preferred choice for a given route, it's not something they are settling for due to lack of money, believe it or not. Just because money becomes available doesn't mean an LRT plan automatically becomes a subway. Sure, it's possible, but it's not automatic, there are actually reasons to stay with LRT for some routes, even if more money becomes available. It is true that LRT is generally cheaper, but that money can be spent on the tons of other projects in the Big Move, of which there is no end to the supply.

For example, there was money to build a Sheppard subway, but many Torontonians believe this was the wrong choice. There is no universal assumption that subways are better than LRTs for all routes, and that if we could only afford it we would want subways everywhere. For some routes, some people believe LRT is more appropriate.

For one thing you can get four of five surface LRT's for the same price as a subway (or probably two subsurface LRTs). More lines means more people are within walking distance of a higher-order transit station. A subway line relies on buses to feed the stations, while an LRT network will generally need fewer feeder buses. Subways tend to create huge urban nodes surrounding the stations that fall off to low-density housing fairly quickly, while LRT's support a broader range of mid-rise development across a wider area.

Transit planning isn't just about transportation - it's also about city building. The subtext of the Ford/Council fight is Ford wants to maintain the suburban status quo with high-rise towers at the nodes surrounded by single-family homes and automobile friendly retail strips. Among other things this clearly separates the urbanites from the suburbanites, and the rich from the poor. Over the last few years city planning and urban design has been moving towards a more mid-rise friendly scenario with more pedestrian friendly arterial streets. There is a desire to move towards a European style of development and away from the American style, which creates a much more egalitarian urban from.

 

[WislaHD]

This tax plus existing funding is so large that I think you could easily build Sheppard subway, make Eglinton a subway, build DRL and significantly improve GO.

Rebuilding the Gardner is going to be helluva expensive, and should be prioritized before a Sheppard or Eglinton subway.

Anyway I agree with ehlow and howl, different technologies are appropriate for different routes. I for example am ecstatic at Eglinton being an LRT and it having more stops. Instead of intense development surrounding nodes on Eglinton (like it is on Sheppard) we are going to have a more uniform development throughout the Eglinton corridor.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Rebuilding the Gardner is going to be helluva expensive, and should be prioritized before a Sheppard or Eglinton subway.

Anyway I agree with ehlow and howl, different technologies are appropriate for different routes. I for example am ecstatic at Eglinton being an LRT and it having more stops. Instead of intense development surrounding nodes on Eglinton (like it is on Sheppard) we are going to have a more uniform development throughout the Eglinton corridor.

Eglinton being a subway from day one from Pearson to Kennedy would have shut up a lot of people. It would be, Toronto is build a new subway from the airport to Scarborough and people would not be whining in the burbs about subways.I have to agree with Andrew, eglinton should be a subway. I wish they would change, but they won't.

 

[BMO]

Eglinton being a subway from day one from Pearson to Kennedy would have shut up a lot of people. It would be, Toronto is build a new subway from the airport to Scarborough and people would not be whining in the burbs about subways.I have to agree with Andrew, eglinton should be a subway. I wish they would change, but they won't.

But LRT is cheaper and can carry the amount of people for the density! Who cares if it'll be slower and less suited for long distance trips, it's perfectly adequate for the density and local trips. Oh, and nobody goes to Scarborough or etobicoke, so the need for these long-distance trips is moot.

On a serious note. If the LRT is ever completed to Pearson, I'd be very surprised if somebody is willing to take that trip from Kennedy all the way through to Pearson. IT could go one of two ways. YES they will because there's really no alternative so they have to settle for it. Or no they won't and they'll just use whatever means they were using before like a Taxi because the cost savings and hassle of going on an LRT with luggage won't be worth it.

We now have to shift our view of the Eglinton line towards that of a high capacity local route, and NOT a long-distance route. The sooner we move away from this, the better we'll be and can focus on potential other improvements to cater to these long-distance trips (like Improved GO shuttles between Scarborough and Pearson or better connections to the future 407 transitway or other routes that can better serve the airport.)