Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[adrianaliu]

I am still confused why this is still a suggestion. Seriously, why leave the stubway as is? Why not extend it? How is LRT actually a better idea?

the best idea is to convert line 4 to underground lrt and then extend that too morningside along the surface of sheppard, but different track gauge and platform heights mean that the conversion will be expensive and not really worth prioritizing for now. Subway is wayyyy tooo expensive especially for a corridor/area that doesn't need it as desperately as many other places in the cities. so i guess in the short term the best idea is to build the lrt and hold off on converting line 4 to lrt until all other priorities are taken care of.

 

[micheal_can]

Two factors. one is the huge cost of building it as subway compared to LRT. The other is that the they revised the projected ridership that was anticipated - it's much lower than they though it would be in the 1990s. Remember that LRT is good for up to about 15,000 - perhaps 20,000 per hour per direction if on a reserved right-of-way like the Line 3 conversion was supposed to be. Sheppard is currently in the 5,000 zone, and would increase to about 7,000 if they completed it (and that's westbound at Yonge in AM peak - it's closer to 2,500 westbound at Scarborough Centre ... and that was without the express subway from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre and the Eglinton line that might leach some of that 2,500).

There are so many other places where we need subway, that would have better ridership. Yonge North. Downtown Relief Line. Even the Kennedy to Scarborough Town Centre has higher ridership.

the best idea is to convert line 4 to underground lrt and then extend that too morningside along the surface of sheppard, but different track gauge and platform heights mean that the conversion will be expensive and not really worth prioritizing for now. Subway is wayyyy tooo expensive especially for a corridor/area that doesn't need it as desperately as many other places in the cities. so i guess in the short term the best idea is to build the lrt and hold off on converting line 4 to lrt until all other priorities are taken care of.

So, why not leave the line as is and do the other more needed projects.

Lets get the DRL and the SRT replacement done first.

 

[adrianaliu]

So, why not leave the line as is and do the other more needed projects.

Lets get the DRL and the SRT replacement done first.

for sure those are bigger priorities but its ok to plan ahead while ur working on other things

 

[micheal_can]

for sure those are bigger priorities but its ok to plan ahead while ur working on other things

Then lets plan to first connect this subway to Downsview. That should happen before the LRT

 

[adrianaliu]

Then lets plan to first connect this subway to Downsview. That should happen before the LRT

as nice as that would look on the map i dont think it should be a priority. it would cost alot and it would bring a subway to a community which is already close to the yonge line and the spadina line. better to spend on projects that would extend the network to places where it does not already exist

 

[nfitz]

Then lets plan to first connect this subway to Downsview. That should happen before the LRT

The forecast ridership between Downsview and Sheppard-Yonge is pathetically low. It's even worse than extending east to Victoria Park. Yes, it's nice for someone who lives at Bathurst/Sheppard, or likes to ski. It's no where near subway territory. The current express only runs 8 times per hour. That's about 400 riders per hour at peak hour. You could meet that demand with a train every 90 minutes.

 

[micheal_can]

Why was the Sheppard line even built?

 

[drum118]

Why was the Sheppard line even built?

It was the Mayor of North York City (Bad Boys Mel Lastmen) pet project who became Mayor of Greater Toronto when it was merge into Toronto as well the surrounding ones. He saw it as the centre of his city to help build it. 25 years later, makes no sense today like it did then.

He twisted enough arms to get it built when Mike Harris said only one of 2 of the lines under construction at the time would be built. Eglinton lost and got fill in.

Mike Harris also stated there was only $1 Billion dollars available to build this line and the money ran out at Don Mills, instead of Victoria as plan. Good old Mike doing as well Mel Lastmen.

 

[BurlOak]

Thanks to everyone who responded.

I'll comment on some objections / change proposals.

1) If the line is more than 50% underground, does it make sense to have 2 km west of Bathurst and 3 km east of Vic Park at grade?

Based on SSE cost escalations, it looks like every km of tunnel is going to cost a lot more than $200 million. $3.35 billion, less say $300 million for the STC station and new bus terminal, divided by 6.5 km, gives $470 million per km. I do not know how much cheaper cut-and-cover might be, but if they are not doing cut-and-cover for SSE, then might not do it for Sheppard either.

5 km at grade versus tunneled can save as much as $2 billion in today's dollars.

Agreed that cost is the key. That is why I said (somewhat facetiously) that the first area to agree to cut-and-cover construction gets a subway.

The one thing that is abundantly clear is that subway construction is disruptive. Currently, it is built/proposed with Tunnel Boring. This means that every intersection (which results in the most disruption to traffic), gets a 25m deep station that takes 4 years to construct. All this extra expesnse and people are still not happy.

http://www.citynews.ca/2017/03/07/businesses-close-doors-due-crosstown-construction/

Why not try cut-and-cover. With precast concrete or high early strength concrete, an area can be cut, the tunnel constructed, and filled in again. This +/- 100m long operation could close each area for 1 month while this operation goes through. At the major intersections, the stations are now 10m deep and can be built in 12 to 18 months. Here, the road would have to stay open, but again with a shallower excavation it is easier.

Tunneling with TBM is a huge expense (not just the tunneling, but all the other costs associated with deep construction), with only perceived benefit.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Sheppard Advanced Light Rail? After the Relief line and Yonge North ...

View attachment 101718

Thin red line: in the street median. Thick dimmed line: underground or on the bridge.

Phase 1: STC to Downsview.

East of Don Mills:
- Underground to just east of Victoria Park. Stations at Consummers and Vic Park.
- In the street median to just west of Kennedy. Stations at Pharmacy, Warden, Birchmount, Allanford
- Underground to STC. Stations at Kennedy Ave, Agincourt GO/RER station, Brimley&Progress, and STC.

West of Yonge:
- Underground up to West Don.
- New bridge over West Don, then another short underground section with a station at Bathurst.
- In the street median from just west of Bathurst to just west of Wilson Heights. Stations at Faywood / Wilmngton and at Wilson Heights.
- Short underground section leading to the Downsview station.

Vehicles: high-floor LRT that can easily fit in the Sheppard Subway tunnel. It will pose a bit of a challenge to design six surface stations as accessible. Either they should have raised platforms, or the vehicles should have low-floor sections. All stations should support trains up to 3-car length.

Maintenance facility: near Downsview, some unused parcels of land are still there.

Phase 2: from STC to Malvern via Centennial Progress campus.

Phase 3: west from Downsview towards Pearson.

Phase 4 (??): a branch from Centennial Progress campus to UofT Scarborough and then to the Rouge Hill GO station.

I think this is fantastic and a great compromise. I especially like the use of high floor LRT. My only question is the sharp curves at agincourt and STC, can the LRT vehicles handle that?

 

[APTA-2048]

Why was the Sheppard line even built?

I bet if Sheppard was built as ICTS as originally proposed, we wouldn't have this ridiculous mess... or the mess in Scarbrough.

 

[Rainforest]

I think this is fantastic and a great compromise. I especially like the use of high floor LRT. My only question is the sharp curves at agincourt and STC, can the LRT vehicles handle that?

My picture is rather coarse, in reality the curves may be more gentle. There are no deep foundations in those areas that would force very tight curves.

Generally, LRT trains can handle tighter curves as well as steeper grades than wide subway trains. That ability might not matter much if the line stays on/under Sheppard, but the detour to Scarborough Centre should be easier to handle if we use LRT cars. Same goes for the possible future extensions east of STC and west of Downsview, the ability to negotiate tighter turns might save the construction costs even if we want substantial grade-separated sections on this line.

 

[Rainforest]

I bet if Sheppard was built as ICTS as originally proposed, we wouldn't have this ridiculous mess... or the mess in Scarbrough.

Yes, it looks like ICTS would be a better option for Sheppard than the wide-bodied subway it has now.

 

[Rainforest]

Agreed that cost is the key. That is why I said (somewhat facetiously) that the first area to agree to cut-and-cover construction gets a subway.

The one thing that is abundantly clear is that subway construction is disruptive. Currently, it is built/proposed with Tunnel Boring. This means that every intersection (which results in the most disruption to traffic), gets a 25m deep station that takes 4 years to construct. All this extra expesnse and people are still not happy.

http://www.citynews.ca/2017/03/07/businesses-close-doors-due-crosstown-construction/

Why not try cut-and-cover. With precast concrete or high early strength concrete, an area can be cut, the tunnel constructed, and filled in again. This +/- 100m long operation could close each area for 1 month while this operation goes through. At the major intersections, the stations are now 10m deep and can be built in 12 to 18 months. Here, the road would have to stay open, but again with a shallower excavation it is easier.

Tunneling with TBM is a huge expense (not just the tunneling, but all the other costs associated with deep construction), with only perceived benefit.

I personally don't mind at all Even if the construction was happening in my neighborhood ..

The concern is that they weren't doing cut-and-cover in the last 30 years or so; they did not want to even consider it in the SSE route selection (for the Midland route in particular). Then, what is the chance that they will change their minds and start doing cut-and-cover on Sheppard?

 

[OneCity]

I bet if Sheppard was built as ICTS as originally proposed, we wouldn't have this ridiculous mess... or the mess in Scarbrough.

100% correct. But we had to either go back and address the mistakes of the past or deal with the Political backlash of forcing poorly designed transfers upon Scarborough. If we converted Sheppard to LRT & connected SSE to the Eglinton Crosstown we would have had an intelligent design for LRT. What we ended up with was ripe for the backlash it received.

I love the Sheppard conversion to LRT and would support it to the fullest but in Im just not all convinced there will be great savings at this stage, especially given the reality of how fast things move and the dynamic of out Politics.

Im kinda of excited to see what this election will bring.
1.Tory will not limp in with his current plan or he's in for trouble. He needs Eglinton East shored up.
2. If Ford runs I wouldn't be shocked to see the SSE promised to Sheppard with another stop at Lawrence using the Smarttrack fund & possible Sheppard East LRT funds
3. I highly doubt any serious downtown candidate will be showing up with the same transfer LRT plan for Scarborough this time if they have any intentions of gaining voters.

The thought of delay worries me, but Im more hopeful that any plan above that moves forward will provide far greater attention to detail on integration and would no doubt be greatly appreciated to many people in Scarborough.