Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[Leo_Chan]

If cost was not an issue and the only factor was number of people served, would the Sheppard extension to STC or the Bloor-Danforth extension to STC benefit more people. I'm leaning on Line 2 because most people go to and from Bloor/downtown. On the other hand, Line 4 will just help going to Yonge/downtown, little will use it to get to STC.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The way things are looking in terms of development at STC, it will likely see a 10 year gap, if not more, without a single residential building finishing. I believe the last tower finished in 2010 or 2011, and there is currently very little in the development pipeline. A few projects are in the process of getting approved, but residents probably won't move in until 2020 or 2021. hardly a high growth area.


Spadina line is starting to see a lot of growth, finally. A bunch of towers are in various stages of development at Lawrence West, Wilson, and Yorkdale stations. Not NYCC levels, but the line isn't designed for that level of density. Downsview has also seen quite a bit of growth around it along Sheppard since it was opened.

Vaughan centre is supposed to open by the end of the year and is going to have around 2,000 residential units under construction around it when it does.


The Scarborough subway has a much better bang for your buck proposition than Sheppard. Ridership is higher, and the project is cheaper.

North York Centre has been fairly successful, if I had a say in the matter. Scarborough centre, less so.

Sheppard line is indeed very low demand. It just seems busy as the TTC scales service to the demand. The in service capacity of the line is around 11,000 PPHD, less than half of that on the Yonge line. Of that capacity, I would be surprised if 2/3rds of it is even used at the busiest times.

 

[Leo_Chan]

The Scarborough subway has a much better bang for your buck proposition than Sheppard. Ridership is higher, and the project is cheaper.

It has more potential riders compared to Sheppard right?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It has more potential riders compared to Sheppard right?

Definitely. The one Scarborough Centre stop on day one is expected to have the same peak point/hour ridership as the entire Sheppard Line (Yonge to STC).

 

[Leo_Chan]

Definitely. The one Scarborough Centre stop on day one is expected to have the same peak point/hour ridership as the entire Sheppard Line (Yonge to STC).

That's an overwhelming amount. Well, that's because Sheppard has so low ridership.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Just bus lanes in trouble spots would solve the current problem. Convert the 85 to POP and remove some stops if they must. The 85 isn't even that frequent for conversion to LRT.

The whole transit city plan had another goal besides carrying people. It includes serving priority (low income) neighbourhoods and triggering mid-raise development along the corridors. Everyone just cares about speed and subways that doesn't achieve any of these goals. No rapid transit to Malvern FAIL! No mid-rise development FAIL! No urbanization of Sheppard Avenue FAIL! No bike lanes for the future mode of transportation FAIL!

The Sheppard subway extension is such an old and outdated plan. A LRT has a much higher chance of transforming Sheppard to a more urbanized boulevard but instead some people prefer a subway that would maintain Sheppard's suburban feel. They might as well stay with buses and forever stay in the 20th century if they're going to argue for a subway.

Toronto's transit landscape has fundamentally changed since the Sheppard Line was introduced.

As someone upthread reminded us, the Sheppard Subway was meant to link North York Centre and Scarborough Centre, both of which were planned to have formidable downtown cores. Of course, that never materialized, and few people are under any illusion that those former boroughs will have a sizeable downtown core. We also know that very few trips are made between these two points.

Furthermore, we will have several new lines bleeding peak hour/peak point ridership from the Sheppard Subway. This includes the Relief Line, GO RER and eventually the Line 2 extension. Ridership for the Sheppard Subway extension when Line 2, Relief Line and GO RER weren't planned to connect, was estimated at around 7,000 pphpd at Yonge. It might not even be half of that with all these new connections to the Sheppard Line bleeding ridership away (my guesstimation). I'm not even confident it would have the ridership to support LRT at this point (the LRT would be subject to the same downward pressures on ridership).

The best thing for Sheppard at the moment would be BRT linking Yonge, Relief Line, RER and Line 2, with the BRT terminating somewhere near the Toronto Zoo. In the future we might be able to built a Sheppard Subway extension on the surface and inexpensively, but that's not something I envision happening soon.

Have you been there at peak hour? Most people will agree that the Sheppard Line is fairly used during rush hour and to my surprise, even sometime off-peak. However, the logic of closing the line at 2am instead of midnight and not running trains every 7-8 minutes instead of 5 or better off-peak is truly puzzling. The Montreal Blue line was shutdown at 11h15pm back in the days until ridership warranted more trains at a later time.

As for both centre not becoming booming downtowns, we'll never know as the line was never built the way it was envisioned, meaning that pointing at those 2 centre and saying "they failed" is a bit misleading. Sure the objective wasn't met but the two center were never connected either.

I think for now, just leave it as is, we have other priorities and revisit the file later.

Toronto has a long list of other places desperately in need of transit. Attempting to build two more downtowns to justify a subway line is ridiculous. Meet the demand where it exists, before trying to create more demand elsewhere, would be wise.

It definitely appears to be fairly used during rush hour, but passenger counts tell a different story. Appearances can be deceiving because of the lower frequency of the line and smaller trains.

So you're proposing a Sheppard BRT to Meadowvale Road. Would it run in the road median or on one side of the roadway? The ridership of the BRT would be pretty low if you're using stop spacing like the 190 rocket bus. Would there be mid block stops, if not, will a Curbside route be required?

I feel like the Sheppard BRT will not have a dedicated route, but different routes will use the ROW instead.

Have you notice the demand on the counter peak direction? 3 seats for everyone. Ridership stats has shown the line haven't even grown while the rest of the system is growing. Sheppard is still running with 4 short trains like it did back in 2002 shows ridership haven't really grown. Mostly everyone gets a seat on the Sheppard line even in rush hour oppose to standing in a tight spot on the two other lines. In TTC standards, 40% of the people should be standing in rush hour. If the subway ran more frequent in rush hour, then I'll agree it's busy. Right now, if they ran 6 car trains at Line 1 headways, everyone would have 5 seats for their backpack, luggage and whatever they bring onboard. The line has the same number of ridership as the Spadina streetcar. TTC didn't even order more TRs for the line expecting it not to grow. It seems somewhat busy in rush hour, but numbers show otherwise.

By keeping the line open at 2am is to provide a service to people in needs oppose to profiting. It's a left-wing socialist thing. Some people agree, some don't. TTC has a long written hidden policy to keep rapid transit lines operating at 5 minutes and better between 6-1am to maintain attractiveness instead of maximizing revenue. TTC exist to keep the city moving not making revenue. However that's debatable with all their delays.

I think most people will agree Scabrorough centre haven't seen any recent development. It hasn't failed completely but it hasn't succeeded. Subways don't necessary drive development. Majority of Line 2 still looks the same like the 60s. The Spadina line haven't seen any development since be completed in 1978 except St Clair West. That's probably bloom due to the proximity near downtown. Even the St Clair streetcar line is bring in mid rises along St Clair. Sheppard line got a bunch of condos can be due to the surrounding and being close to the 401. If Scarbrough Cemtre starts blooming again with the Scarborough subway, maybe it'll make more sense to extend Sheppard.

If cost was not an issue and the only factor was number of people served, would the Sheppard extension to STC or the Bloor-Danforth extension to STC benefit more people. I'm leaning on Line 2 because most people go to and from Bloor/downtown. On the other hand, Line 4 will just help going to Yonge/downtown, little will use it to get to STC.

The way things are looking in terms of development at STC, it will likely see a 10 year gap, if not more, without a single residential building finishing. I believe the last tower finished in 2010 or 2011, and there is currently very little in the development pipeline. A few projects are in the process of getting approved, but residents probably won't move in until 2020 or 2021. hardly a high growth area.


Spadina line is starting to see a lot of growth, finally. A bunch of towers are in various stages of development at Lawrence West, Wilson, and Yorkdale stations. Not NYCC levels, but the line isn't designed for that level of density. Downsview has also seen quite a bit of growth around it along Sheppard since it was opened.

Vaughan centre is supposed to open by the end of the year and is going to have around 2,000 residential units under construction around it when it does.


The Scarborough subway has a much better bang for your buck proposition than Sheppard. Ridership is higher, and the project is cheaper.

North York Centre has been fairly successful, if I had a say in the matter. Scarborough centre, less so.

Sheppard line is indeed very low demand. It just seems busy as the TTC scales service to the demand. The in service capacity of the line is around 11,000 PPHD, less than half of that on the Yonge line. Of that capacity, I would be surprised if 2/3rds of it is even used at the busiest times.

Here's the thing though. This debate will go on until someone does something. The resident want the subway done. I want LRT, we want it, but the people don't. And once the Bloor extension is completed, the focus goes to Sheppard. They will have to cave at some point.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Here's the thing though. This debate will go on until someone does something. The resident want the subway done. I want LRT, we want it, but the people don't. And once the Bloor extension is completed, the focus goes to Sheppard. They will have to cave at some point.

So you're just saying we should not discuss this topic until Scarborough is built or until council brings it up again? Thats fine, but I like putting ideas on the imaginary table.

 

[11th]

it never made sense to put the subway along Sheppard. It should have gone along Finch. Sheppard in the west ends at Weston Rd, there is a bridge from Bathurst to west of Avenue Rd so no houses or condos to draw people along that stretch. Condos that are along there form Dufferin to Bathurst are low rise. I do encounter traffic east and west of Bathurst but I usually find it smooth sailing. Whenever I need to go east I always go to Sheppard to drive east. Now perhaps east of Yonge Sheppard is busier but since ridership on Sheppard subway is not great to me it confirms that Finch would have been the better route.

Finch has always been the route to take if you want to avoid traffic from say Dufferin to Victoria Park. Sheppard along the same stretch is busier relatively. A Finch subway from Yonge to Don Mills might only be successful because A) it leads to a terminus station (Finch), B) it acts a shuttle to Seneca College; but other than that, it would have the same problem as current line 4, perhaps worse - look at Finch between Bayview and Don Mills.

Have you been there at peak hour? Most people will agree that the Sheppard Line is fairly used during rush hour and to my surprise, even sometime off-peak. However, the logic of closing the line at 2am instead of midnight and not running trains every 7-8 minutes instead of 5 or better off-peak is truly puzzling. The Montreal Blue line was shutdown at 11h15pm back in the days until ridership warranted more trains at a later time.

People failed to realize, yes, the Sheppard east bus was busy, but a good number of the passengers came from east of Don Mills. That's why the subway hasn't been a success. What the subway has accomplished was removing redundant service on the section between Yonge and Don Mills. For the subway to have acceptable passenger volume, it has to hit NW Scarborough.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

So you're just saying we should not discuss this topic until Scarborough is built or until council brings it up again? Thats fine, but I like putting ideas on the imaginary table.

I'm saying I want the issue resolved. the Scarborough transit file has gotten 11 years now, it's time to move on.

 

[Steve X]

Finch has always been the route to take if you want to avoid traffic from say Dufferin to Victoria Park. Sheppard along the same stretch is busier relatively. A Finch subway from Yonge to Don Mills might only be successful because A) it leads to a terminus station (Finch), B) it acts a shuttle to Seneca College; but other than that, it would have the same problem as current line 4, perhaps worse - look at Finch between Bayview and Don Mills.
People failed to realize, yes, the Sheppard east bus was busy, but a good number of the passengers came from east of Don Mills. That's why the subway hasn't been a success. What the subway has accomplished was removing redundant service on the section between Yonge and Don Mills. For the subway to have acceptable passenger volume, it has to hit NW Scarborough.

The Lawrence West bus is busier. Why can't I even get them to consider placing bus jump lanes at intersections? They haven't even consider anything to improve the stretch between Lawrence West Station and Dufferin while every car tries to squeeze onto Allen Rd. At least they can run the 199 rocket on Finch East without having them stuck in traffic.

Sheppard is overrated!

 

[smallspy]

Have you notice the demand on the counter peak direction? 3 seats for everyone.

In all of the years that I've been taking the Sheppard Line to get to and from work - 4+ now, and counter peak - I have never had 3 seats to myself. In fact, it's not unusual that I've had to stand for my trip.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[11th]

The Lawrence West bus is busier. Why can't I even get them to consider placing bus jump lanes at intersections? They haven't even consider anything to improve the stretch between Lawrence West Station and Dufferin while every car tries to squeeze onto Allen Rd. At least they can run the 199 rocket on Finch East without having them stuck in traffic.

Sheppard is overrated!

It's one big block away, but soon Line 5 might bring relief to some current Lawrence West riders (not for those who board/get off min-block).
As for "busier", I'm not sure where you get the numbers. Are we comparing 52 (23k) and 85 (27k) ? (but really should be comparing 52 (23k) with line 4 (47k) )

 

[amnesiajune]

Subways don't necessary drive development.

Then explain North York Centre. And explain the development around Downsview, and at Bloor & Islington.

Majority of Line 2 still looks the same like the 60s.

That has nothing to do with whether or not subways drive development. First of all, developers can't build much on the north side of Bloor because the tracks would be underneath whatever they build. So aside from major roads, that's off-limits to high-density buildings. And then on the south side, there are two huge hurdles. The first is that the city has very tight restrictions on development so most proposals would have to go through the OMB, and the second is that except for a few big shops, you'd have to buy land from numerous different owners if you want to build anything significant, and that's fairly challenging for developers to do.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Then explain North York Centre. And explain the development around Downsview, and at Bloor & Islington.

What about Vic Park/Golden Mile? St. Clair West? Why not Kennedy? And if RT is that inferior, why is STC comprable to Islington in many ways in terms of intensity?

AoD

 

[Tuck]

Then explain North York Centre. And explain the development around Downsview, and at Bloor & Islington.

Subways can be great tools to drive density - would Vaughan's new "downtown" area be popular with developers and potential buyers if there was no subway connection? Maybe. But there are also cases in the city, like along Bloor, where the subway didn't bring any density, because city policy didn't match the infrastructure being built.

Not that I entirely disagree with you per se, but NYC is on Yonge Street - Toronto's main street. So its maybe a bit disingenuous of an example. And Downs view is an all around terrible example of density being driven by subway construction. Theres nothing there.