Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[1overcosc]

YES and when you leave the vehicle to board the subway. Otherwise you won't have a transfer to get on the next bus or streetcar.



OCTranspo doesn't have rear door boarding for 40 ft buses anywhere on the system. There is no need to have a presto reader in the back. In fact 99% of the transit systems in Canada does not allow rear door entry. Fare paid zone (that is not POP) is unique to the TTC which allows rear door boarding at stations to speed up loading time. Ottawa wants to copy TTC's fare paid zone for their new LRT stations but they have a time based transfer system. There is no need to tap, tap and tap so they don't need one at the rear doors.

Yep. When Ottawa implements its LRT system, bus->LRT transfers will use the exact same setup that the TTC uses with transfers inside fare paid zones. Ottawa reviewed dozens of systems across the world and decided Toronto's model was the most efficient and most worth copying.

 

[TOareaFan]

YES and when you leave the vehicle to board the subway. Otherwise you won't have a transfer to get on the next bus or streetcar.

you sure about this? when you use a streetcar now and then transfer to the subway you do not have to tap off of the streetcar....so why would buses be different? I would think you tap on to a bus (wherever you get on it) but do not tap off.

 

[Steve X]

Yep. When Ottawa implements its LRT system, bus->LRT transfers will use the exact same setup that the TTC uses with transfers inside fare paid zones. Ottawa reviewed dozens of systems across the world and decided Toronto's model was the most efficient and most worth copying.

Except the TTC is making it worst by having everyone tap on when boarding any vehicle anywhere and on+off for subway. Technically you don't have to tap if you don't transfer but a change in policy would require all riders to have a valid POP. I might mean everyone needs to tap to validate their trip.

you sure about this? when you use a streetcar now and then transfer to the subway you do not have to tap off of the streetcar....so why would buses be different? I would think you tap on to a bus (wherever you get on it) but do not tap off.

It's not different. Brad Ross has confirm this. You don't tap off any bus/streetcars but when you arrive at the station, you'll have to tap on a presto reader in the station before continuing your trip. TTC hasn't provided details on this yet but I expect them to install a whole bunch of readers within fare paid zone to allow all riders to do so. This will happen in 2017 when presto is full implemented.

 

[nfitz]

I'm pretty sure they are location and direction sensitive. At least they should do that. People will have to tap at the subway station or the transfer is not valid. Otherwise, people can stop over, shop and continue their trip home without paying another fare.

From all the discussion we've had, with examples, it appears that it's a simple 2-hour transfer that simply doesn't let you reboard the same route again.

I would really like to know what happens if you tapped on the 506, get off at Yonge. Walk to Dundas and tap to get in the subway. Would it be accepted? This is an illegal transfer and the system should outright deny a transfer.

We've seen similar examples already. This is accepted. Given how frequently 506 streetcars detour down Dundas, how would Presto no whether it was a valid transfer or not? For that matter, one can legitimately change from 506 to 505 at Broadview, and then tap on at Dundas ... and I have done this, if I've seen a 505 coming when I'm heading west on 506, because it's a bit quicker and shorter - and in AM peak the westbound 506 get's stuck at Parliament, while 505 doesn't.

Drivers can't monitor the back door. If people get sent to the back, they might not tap. It's better than nothing as honest people will pay their fare.

Most people are honest, and will tap.

YES and when you leave the vehicle to board the subway. Otherwise you won't have a transfer to get on the next bus or streetcar.

What's your source for that? The TTC board decision was about tapping onto a vehicle in a fare-paid area. I've seen no indication that you'd have to tap into the station as well. And how would you ... there's no Presto machines installed in the right locations to do this.

 

[NotMathematical]

Except the TTC is making it worst by having everyone tap on when boarding any vehicle anywhere and on+off for subway. Technically you don't have to tap if you don't transfer but a change in policy would require all riders to have a valid POP. I might mean everyone needs to tap to validate their trip.


It's not different. Brad Ross has confirm this. You don't tap off any bus/streetcars but when you arrive at the station, you'll have to tap on a presto reader in the station before continuing your trip. TTC hasn't provided details on this yet but I expect them to install a whole bunch of readers within fare paid zone to allow all riders to do so. This will happen in 2017 when presto is full implemented.

YES and when you leave the vehicle to board the subway. Otherwise you won't have a transfer to get on the next bus or streetcar.

Tapping on in a bus or streetcar inside the farepaid zone of the subway will result on a double-charge on your card, this includes tapping at the subway station as well as per current transfer rules. The TTC has said they'll implement a tap ON/OFF at the subway station, while buses will get a tap ON policy. For the Tap Off to occur at subway stations, the new fare gates that are being installed throughout the network will have a reader [for now you walk through for the gates to open] so the gates will open for you.

What's your source for that? The TTC board decision was about tapping onto a vehicle in a fare-paid area. I've seen no indication that you'd have to tap into the station as well. And how would you ... there's no Presto machines installed in the right locations to do this.

^ This too...

 

[Megaton327]

Tapping on in a bus or streetcar inside the farepaid zone of the subway will result on a double-charge on your card, this includes tapping at the subway station as well as per current transfer rules.

That is 100% false. Again, Brad Ross has clarified multiple times that this is the TTC's current fare payment policy with Presto, i.e. if you do NOT do this you have not paid your fare on the surface vehicle.

Here is proof that it does not charge you twice:

That is a trip I took where I entered Union Station at the concourse by tapping my Presto card on a turnstile at 1:05 PM which deducted a $2.90 fare, then I went downstairs to wait for a westbound 509 streetcar, when one arrived 11 minutes later (adhering to headways, right?) at 1:16 PM I tapped my card as I boarded and it identified the tap as a transfer, deducting $0.00.

I hope that puts the discussion to rest. While I think it is an incredibly, uniquely, groundbreakingly stupid decision by the TTC, and I think that it is fraudulent that this is the fare policy and you can get fined for not doing it yet the TTC has not put up one single poster or made any announcement anywhere besides Brad Ross' twitter account (I doubt they would actually fine you for this, and having read By-Law No. 1 I doubt such a fine would possibly hold up in court), it is nonetheless the rule.

 

[nfitz]

... and having read By-Law No. 1 I doubt such a fine would possibly hold up in court), it is nonetheless the rule.

If you read By-Law No. 1, you can be fined for taking a transfer after tapping with your Presto card - so clearly By-Law No. 1 doesn't reflect what's currently going on ...

 

[APTA-2048]

I really hate how TTC has cocked up the user experience with Presto. Plus one of the great things about the TTC is the seamless transfer at subway stations.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

TTC hasn't provided details on this yet but I expect them to install a whole bunch of readers within fare paid zone to allow all riders to do so. This will happen in 2017 when presto is full implemented.

I think they should put some in at the exit ares for Streetcars at Spadina and Union but make them exit only as every now and then poel walk past long lines of poel and get on a waiting streetcar. I one time overhead somone get stopped by a fare inspector, there response to the was "people do it all the time". There was a huge line of poel almost to the subway platform behind me too, but I guess they were more important then everyone else.

 

[Dan416]

In LA they have readers in front of the LRT lines (blue & green lines) and the announcements remind you to TAP (that's their version of Presto) on before boarding those lines (I was transferring from the red/purple subway). I thought that was kinda odd, but this sounds similar. You don't get charged again for it.

 

[Steve X]

What's your source for that? The TTC board decision was about tapping onto a vehicle in a fare-paid area. I've seen no indication that you'd have to tap into the station as well. And how would you ... there's no Presto machines installed in the right locations to do this.

I'll be clear. I don't have a specific source that says they will do it.

The presto presentation at one of the board meetings said that this is a possibility. Brad Ross's tweets mention there needs to be a way to validate each transfer. The card can't tell if the rider has taken the subway or not if they don't tap at a station. Some people take a bus north to the subway, subway to their destination and head back south on another bus. The info I hear is the card is stupid and they'll need some form of indication to know that the rider took the subway. So they have to tap.

Finally, in another board meeting regarding the new CAD/AVL system, they mention this system will be tied with presto and would be used to monitor how people transfer and what exactly do they use. They'll use it to make service adjustments and improvements. For this to work, they need everyone to tap everything they come across. That probably means everyone will have to tap at the subway when they get there even in fare paid zone.

I can be wrong cause nothing is publicly finalized but right now it sounds like this will happen.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I mistakingly tapped my Presto card tonight despite someone I was travelling with having a day pass (let's 2 adults ride).

The attendant at the booth was nice enough to point out my mistake, and called me back to the booth to hand me an emergency transfer to use for a free ride in the future.

It would be nice if in the future, they had the ability to issue an emergency transfer via Presto, or simply refunds.

In the meantime, kudos to the lady at the booth at Broadview tonight for going above and beyond.

Was this "emergency transfer" different from normal transfers? I assume it would have to be, since our normal transfers are tied to specific routes and expire after an arbitrary amount of time.

 

[Tuscani01]

Was this "emergency transfer" different from normal transfers? I assume it would have to be, since our normal transfers are tied to specific routes and expire after an arbitrary amount of time.

Its a yellow transfer that says "Emergency Transfer" on it. It says to be used within an hour of a shutdown but the lady at the booth said I could use it any time. It just needs to be surrendered and traded for a transfer.

 

[nfitz]

More TTC oddness.

The transfer at 10:10 AM yesterday at "Union Station" worked ... except that I was transferring from a 506 to a 504 at Broadview/Gerrard. But the trip home didn't go as well.

At 8:13 pm eastbound at King/Ontario, along came a new streetcar (4415) signed as a 501 Leslie (short turn) - I'd assume it was a 510 returning to the yard. So I got on it, never knowing when something better would come. I got off at Broadview, as I'd seen a 504 behind us, and by then I'd checked 506 on Nextbus to see that I wouldn't have a long wait. So I tapped on the 504 at Queen/Broadview at 8:23 and a 506 eastbound at Gerrard/Broadview at 8:29 pm.

And as you can see below, I got nailed for a second fare boarding the 504. Which seems odd, given that I'd have thought the system would think the first streetcar was either a 501 or a 510.

But then I took a close look at the transfer I'd grabbed on 4415 (on the off-chance I'd end up taking a bus from Queen to Gerrard) - and it said 504 King on it. Which is odd, given the vehicle said 501 on the front.

Oh well, I guess we'll find out how efficient the TTC refund system works.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

And as you can see below, I got nailed for a second fare boarding the 504. Which seems odd, given that I'd have thought the system would think the first streetcar was either a 501 or a 510.

oddly that part doesn't surprise me as one time I tapped onto a 509 and got a transfer for 510. I think the transfer machine does not coordinate with the route info on the streetcar properly and goes by location of the car instead so it probably registered you wer n a king car and transferred to another king car in this case I would have just used the trasfer to get on the king car rather then tapping on again