Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[nfitz]

Metrolinx still has no idea why the reload machines are breaking.

The Metrolinx report said they were all being replaced soon, none the less.

 

[Megaton327]

The Metrolinx report said they were all being replaced soon, none the less.

I have to wonder, then, why they paid so much for these to be installed for about what, two years by the time they're replaced for the ones that were installed earliest, when they were planning on replacing all of them? Then again, the AG report gives me a pretty good idea of the kind of thought process that usually goes on at Metrolinx--none.

 

[salsa]

Metrolinx says 98% of Presto card readers now working on TTC buses and streetcars. They want to get it to 99%.


Also, a little change of plans here:

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Metrolinx says 98% of Presto card readers now working on TTC buses and streetcars. They want to get it to 99%.

98% reliability is terrible in the payment industry. Even 99% isn't that good. But I'll happily accept 99%.

Also, a little change of plans here:

View attachment 93698

View attachment 93699

Not surprised. Presto isn't ready for prime time. Looks like TTC will have to create a new line of Metropass designs to celebrate its "final final year".

 

[nfitz]

I have to wonder, then, why they paid so much for these to be installed for about what, two years by the time they're replaced for the ones that were installed earliest, when they were planning on replacing all of them?

Given the report discusses how they aren't performing adequately, and that's why they are being replaced, then I'd assume they were never planning on replacing them.

There's no indication of where the costs come from ... 100% Metrolinx, or a share of the vendor, who appears to be the same, providing the new next generation devices that they hope are more functional. Or at least that's what I took away from a quick read when it came out.

 

[Megaton327]

Given the report discusses how they aren't performing adequately, and that's why they are being replaced, then I'd assume they were never planning on replacing them.

There's no indication of where the costs come from ... 100% Metrolinx, or a share of the vendor, who appears to be the same, providing the new next generation devices that they hope are more functional. Or at least that's what I took away from a quick read when it came out.

Hmm, how I'd read the term "second generation devices" was that they were always planning to replace them. As in, I would have expected "upgraded devices" or "repaired devices" or something like that for a fix being deployed, since this issue has only gotten out of hand in the last few months...I interpreted "second generation devices" as something planned for some time now, before the current issues reached their excessive level. I suppose there's no easy way to tell.

 

[mdrejhon]

They need to program a firmware upgrade with a watchdog timer that will automatically do this (reset the RFID reader).

I ran into four different nonfunctioning Presto machines in one day. When they are working, I like the new reload machines (much faster than GO ticket machines), but when they flake out...

Couldn't this automated reset be made easier? Even triggered by repeatedly tapping on the screen? Is there harm in doing this RFID reader reset automatically in a new firmware upgrade?

 

[ADRM]

Given the report discusses how they aren't performing adequately, and that's why they are being replaced, then I'd assume they were never planning on replacing them.

There's no indication of where the costs come from ... 100% Metrolinx, or a share of the vendor, who appears to be the same, providing the new next generation devices that they hope are more functional. Or at least that's what I took away from a quick read when it came out.

If you're referring to the costs associated with fixes and/or upgrades to the faulty re-load machines, Ben Spurr also indicated that Metrolinx is in the process of negotiating with the vendor such that the vendor will carry the cost (as it should be, obviously).

 

[Le Gique]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/12/08/ttc-to-complete-presto-switch-by-2018.html

 

[steveintoronto]

If you're referring to the costs associated with fixes and/or upgrades to the faulty re-load machines, Ben Spurr also indicated that Metrolinx is in the process of negotiating with the vendor such that the vendor will carry the cost (as it should be, obviously).

I guess we're going to have to wait for next year's A-G report to find out. Metrolinx have a terrible record with carrying out standard business practices with suppliers, that being the supplier must meet the terms of the contract, or face consequences.

Ontario's welfare computer glitches are not the first | Toronto Star
https://www.thestar.com › News › Canada
Jan 25, 2015 - 11, SAMS, the Ontario government's new $242-million welfare caseload ... The year before Accenture Canada's custom-built SDMT system was ...
System builder of Presto fare card had poor track record - The Globe ...
www.theglobeandmail.com › News › Toronto
Dec 18, 2012 - U.S. firm Accenture missed deadlines, failed to adhere to initial ... problems delivering multimillion-dollar contracts for the Ontario government, ...
Accenture | Strategy, Consulting, Digital, Technology and Operations
https://www.accenture.com/ca-en
Accenture is a leading global professional services company, providing a broad ... We share the latest thinking tied to business and governments and discuss ...
‎Careers · ‎About Accenture · ‎Accenture Strategy · ‎Technology
Accenture IT System Under Fire in Ontario | Computerworld
www.computerworld.com/article/.../it.../accenture-it-system-under-fire-in-ontario.html
A $213.8 million welfare payments system that Accenture developed for Ontario's government cost far more than expected. Now the 2-year-old system faces ...
LORINC: Metrolinx and Accenture deny Presto-DC allegations - Spacing
spacing.ca/toronto/2014/01/.../lorinc-metrolinx-accenture-deny-presto-dc-allegations/
Jan 20, 2014 - They say the government has to explain how Accenture, a $28 billion-a-year systems integrator that came in for tough criticism from Ontario's ...
[...etc...]

- First five Google search results "Accenture Ontario government"

It's interesting to see what's been stated in retrospect on this:

LORINC: Metrolinx and Accenture deny Presto-DC allegations
January 20, 2014 | By John Lorinc
[...]
Klees, in fact, argues the government should “put a hold” on Presto’s next generation fare system and open it up to competitive tenders from other providers, such as ACS, a Xerox subsidiary that won the aborted TTC open fare RFP in 2010 (ACS was one of only two bidders, and the other was disqualified). “We get those bids and then we can make a decision based on best value,” he said in an interview.

According to Patrick Searle, a spokesperson for Murray, “The Minister welcomes the news as good news and as validation that PRESTO is a world class fare system, well served by public transit users in the GTHA and Ottawa.” He did not reply directly to Klees’ questions.

Hollis, for his part, shed more light on the controversial November, 2012, IP agreement between Metrolinx and Accenture. After securing a contract to develop an open fare system for the TTC, the company approached Metrolinx about negotiating a global rights deal. “Accenture wanted to use Presto on platforms around the world,” he said.

Accenture officials have stated repeatedly that the company had a fare system platform prior to its deal with Presto, and plenty of experience in rail and air travel ticketing. Its only previous transit system was in the Netherlands.

According to Hollis, Metrolinx and Accenture created an “open architecture” system that allows transit agencies to use a range of devices, such as card readers, built by various suppliers. Commuters, in turn, will be able to pay with various fare media, including bank and ID cards, Presto cards, and smart phones.

Metrolinx, says Hollis, didn’t see its role as marketing the technology internationally, and so Accenture, under the contract, retained global rights outside Canada in exchange for a “a multi-million dollar” one-time payment by Accenture. Said Hollis: “We don’t have the means or the mandate to re-sell this [system].”

Metrolinx officials declined to reveal the precise pay-out, saying such a disclosure would violate the agreement, which stipulates confidentiality. However, spokesperson Anne Marie Aikins said Metrolinx will eventually report the payment in its financial statements, although it may not be broken out as a separate line item.

Hollis added that Metrolinx, under the IP agreement with Accenture, also has the right to use, at no extra cost, technology enhancements developed by other customers of the system that the company developed for Presto.

As for Canadian customers, the IP contract provides unspecified royalties to Metrolinx if Accenture’s Presto system is procured by other domestic operators. But Hollis could cite only two: the LRT networks in Calgary and Edmonton.

http://spacing.ca/toronto/2014/01/20/lorinc-metrolinx-accenture-deny-presto-dc-allegations/

 

[amnesiajune]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/12/08/ttc-to-complete-presto-switch-by-2018.html

He said that the TTC had always intended to stop selling tickets, tokens, and passes by the end of next year, but it will have to continue to accept some older forms of payment beyond that date.

It doesn't sound like anything different as far as ending the sale of tokens and metropasses by the end of 2017. Just sounds like they'll keep accepting old tickets and tokens for part of 2018 instead of doing an exchange program like they did for adult tickets when they were phased out in 2008.

The TTC can’t refund the tokens because their price fluctuates from year to year and the agency has no way of knowing their value when customers bought them.

This is a dumb reason though. Is the TTC really so afraid of people who've been hoarding tokens for a decade hoping to get all of 75 cents in profit?

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

Doesn't this sound familiar?

"The problem here is this is a kind of invent-your-own unique system when the current system works well. It works well in New York. So why we have to find a WMATA-unique program"

Metro May Dump New Fare Gate Payment System After Lackluster Trial
Martin Di Caro

The new fare gates being piloted would let riders pay with credit cards, federal government IDs, or smartphones.

Martin Di Caro/WAMU


A 90-day test program for a modern fare payment system at Metro train stations, buses, and parking lots has left the transit authority’s leadership unimpressed and considering dumping it altogether, pending more testing and further review.

Full implementation of the $250 million system already is a projected $44 million over budget, and although 3,000 Metro riders signed up for the pilot program, only 400 participated.

The new fare gates will employ near field communication technology, allowing riders to tap their credit cards, government IDs, or smartphones and have the fare immediately deducted from their accounts. If deployed across the Metro system, it will phase out SmarTrip cards, now used by about 90 percent of riders, in the next two to four years.

While the pilot program appeared to work effectively for the few who used it, Metro conceded testing across media was insufficient.

“Media types specified for testing included… smart card, NFC equipped mobile phone, contactless credit card and two versions of government ID cards,” according to transit authority documents prepared for the board of directors (pdf).

“Some of these media, notably the contactless credit cards and NFC equipped mobile phones, are not currently in extensive use due to either the recent introduction of the technology or limited distribution by providers in the U.S. These circumstances, along with the detail information needed to reconcile and review test results, limited the readiness of customer participants to use these media types,” the documents said.

Some board members said Metro should not commit to such an expensive program until additional testing demonstrates the new system actually will be an upgrade over SmarTrip.

“We have to have a more vigorous, vibrant pilot before we can decide whether this project should go forward,” said attorney Michael Goldman, Maryland’s representative on Metro’s board.

The pilot program placed the new fare gates at 10 rail stations and aboard 50 buses. Parking lots could not be tested because of a delay in the delivery of the software.

“The problem here is this is a kind of invent-your-own unique system when the current system works well. It works well in New York. So why we have to find a WMATA-unique program…is befuddling me,” Goldman said.

Metro interim general manager Jack Requa, in remarks to reporters, was unable to explain why full implementation is forecast to go over budget. He also would not commit to the going forward with the all-electronic payment system for which Metro awarded Accenture a $184 million contract in Jan. 2014.

“We need to make some improvements to a system that is 40 years old in some form or another. This is the current proposal to do that, and that is what we are evaluating,” Requa said.

When pressed by a reporter whether Metro may dump the “next generation” system altogether, Requa said, “That’s an option.”

 

[steveintoronto]

Doesn't this sound familiar?

Here's the link for that story:
http://wamu.org/story/15/07/13/metro_may_dump_new_fare_gate_payment_system_after_lackluster_trial/

Here's the latest on that story:

By Paul Duggan April 14, 2016

After spending $25 million to design and test a new, high-tech fare-paying system for train and bus passengers, Metro said Thursday that it has abandoned the program because the public’s response to it has been tepid.

“The market isn’t there,” General Manager Paul J. Wiedefeld said in announcing that Metro has scrapped a plan to install hundreds of subway fare gates and bus fare boxes with “near field communication,” or NFC, technology. Riders would have been able to pay fares simply by waving NFC-ready smartphones or credit cards.

“In the pilot program, we couldn’t even get the right number of people to do the surveys,” Wiedefeld said. “There just aren’t enough people with [NFC] capabilities.”

Going forward with the project to build and install the gates and fare boxes would have cost an additional $150 million, according to Wiedefeld, who said he has terminated a contract for the work, awarded in 2014 to Accenture, a technology company.

The contract is the largest one to be killed by Wiedefeld since he took charge of Metro in late November, with a mission to straighten out the agency’s finances and refocus its spending on immediate, safety-related problems, of which there are many.

Metro once saw “NFC” technology as a wave of the future.]

He said Metro still intends to spend the $150 million on modernizing its fare-collection system, including replacing subway fare gates with newer models. But he said the gates will not be designed for riders who want to use NFC technology.

Last year, from Feb. 23 to May 23, about 400 riders who volunteered to take part in a pilot program used prototype NFC fare-collection machinery in certain Metro stations and on some Metrobus routes. These were people who already owned devices and cards equipped with NFC chips. Metro had hoped that many more than 400 riders would participate.

About 3,000 people initially volunteered to take part in the pilot, but only about 13 percent of them did so. Nevertheless, after finishing a 90-day program, the transit agency said in a report that it was planning for eventual “full deployment.”

By holding a card or phone within a few inches of a gate or fare box, a rider’s fare is added to a credit-card balance or deducted from a bank account.

“Metro’s existing fare collection system is aging rapidly in the context of equipment and systems, and has become too costly to maintain and is severely limited in its flexibility,” according to the report.

“A significant number of customer-participants said [Metro] is moving in the right direction with this program,” the report said. “Generally, the technology tested was found to meet expectations while future changes for smoother implementation were identified.”

The report said: “The accuracy of transactions and reliability of the devices and systems was measured against the expected performance. . . . Generally, performance was determined [to be] acceptable,” although there were “some areas of concern.”

NFC fare-paying systems are in use in the Chicago transit system and several transit systems in Asia, according to Metro.

However, Wiedefeld said, the concept isn’t popular enough with the public to justify a long-term investment in it by Metro.

“The technology has just not gotten to that stage yet,” he said.

134 Comments

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...07c79ce3504_story.html?utm_term=.f00d16b1fb7b

Here's the connection to Metrolinx:

TRANSIT
Comments14
Presto technology sold to Washington, D.C. raises questions

JANUARY 15, 2014

Accenture, the $28 billion private contractor building the Presto electronic fare network, last week won a contract to construct a similar system for Washington D.C.’s Metro, but at a fraction of the price paid by the Ontario government and using some of the software and network technology the company has developed for Metrolinx, Spacing has learned.

The development is likely to raise more tough questions about Accenture’s long-running, and oft-delayed, Presto project, which came in for harsh criticism from Ontario’s auditor-general in December, 2012, due to roll-out glitches, cost escalations and untendered contract extensions.

“By the time it is fully developed, Presto will be among the more expensive fare-card systems in the world, and more than $700 million may have been paid to the contractor for developing it,” former Auditor General Jim McCarter said at the time. The original ten-year contract with Accenture, signed in 2006, was worth $250 million.

Washington Metro last week announced that it had selected Accenture to build a next generation fare system to replace its current fare card, which was developed by Cubic. The six-year contract is worth just US$184 million, and will include 1,000 faregates, 450 fare vending machines, approximately 1,500 bus payment targets, and approximately 160 new payment targets at parking exit lanes. Riders will be able to pay with chip-enabled bank or credit cards, federal government ID cards, smart phones and so-called “SmarTrip” cards. The agency says it wants to eliminate tickets, and is in the midst of a $6 billion network upgrade.
[...]

http://spacing.ca/toronto/2014/01/15/presto-technology-sold-washington-d-c-raises-questions/

 

[Megaton327]

The TTC can’t refund the tokens because their price fluctuates from year to year and the agency has no way of knowing their value when customers bought them.

This is a dumb reason though. Is the TTC really so afraid of people who've been hoarding tokens for a decade hoping to get all of 75 cents in profit?

Their statement doesn't make sense. People can use those old tokens. If you buy a token at $2.80 and then you use it at $2.90, you're essentially taking a $2.90 ride for $2.80, for 10 cents less than the fare; if you buy a $2.80 token and get a refund from the TTC for $2.90, you're getting $2.90 for a $2.80 token, an extra 10 cents.

The same thing happens either way. Why is the TTC being difficult over something they already permit?

 

[amnesiajune]

Why is the TTC being difficult over something they already permit?

I'd assume that it's an accounting issue. Instead of keeping track of how many tokens are out there are debts (i.e. rides owed to people), they just count tokens sold as revenue. That makes a refund impossible (unless the TTC wants to spend a hard-to-determine amount of money that they don't have on it), and they don't want to go through the hassle of collecting tokens and crediting them to people's Presto accounts (which, again, they would have to pay for and wait for the money to circulate back to them, minus whatever fees that would be charged by Metrolinx for administering the system).