Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[MetroMan]

Are there newer generation Presto readers being installed on streetcars? While it hasn't worked on another streetcar when I tried recently, I tapped my AppleWatch with ApplePay (Scotiabank INTERAC) on a reader and it gave me an approved green check mark. I checked my account and it wasn't debited but it did read ApplePay and accepted it. I wonder if they're already rolling it out behind the scenes to accept debit tap payments but just haven't installed the full process yet. Or maybe I'll receive the charge in a few days.

 

[Megaton327]

Are there newer generation Presto readers being installed on streetcars? While it hasn't worked on another streetcar when I tried recently, I tapped my AppleWatch with ApplePay (Scotiabank INTERAC) on a reader and it gave me an approved green check mark. I checked my account and it wasn't debited but it did read ApplePay and accepted it. I wonder if they're already rolling it out behind the scenes to accept debit tap payments but just haven't installed the full process yet. Or maybe I'll receive the charge in a few days.

I believe you or someone else posted this in the past--I tried apple pay with both my Visa credit and Interac debit cards on both my apple watch and my iPhone, on both a streetcar and at a subway station, and it did nothing each time. I'm not sure what happened when you tried it, but it definitely didn't happen for me, and there would be no reason to think that's possible.

 

[Kitsune]

So Dupont has slipped from the End of May... to Sping 2016 and now Summer 2016. Any other stations that are delayed ?

 

[1overcosc]

With all due respect to Brad, and I love the amount of information he gives out, sometimes he says stuff that is either severely lacking in detail or a bit off. Ottawa is also located in Ontario last time I checked, so presumably they're also subject to the AODA, and yet they seem to be managing fine? Or are OCTranspo, GO, YRT/Viva, Oakville, Burlington, HSR, Durham, MiWay, Brampton, and UPX all breaking the law?

OC Transpo (Ottawa's transit agency) is actually not subject to AODA.

Because OC Transpo has several routes that cross the interprovincial border into Gatineau, the entire system is constitutionally classified as an interprovincial transportation service, which puts it under federal jurisdiction, rather than provincial (just like railways and airlines).

As such, OC Transpo is not subject to the AODA and it's labour relations are subject to federal labour laws, not Ontario's. This is actually relevant in many ways; for example, federal dispute resolution rules apply in the event of a strike, and if wage negotations at OC Transpo ever go to arbitration, federal settlements are used as benchmarks instead of provincial ones.

(Incidentally, Presto works on Gatineau buses as well. It took a series of special agreements between Metrolinx and the Quebec government to make this happen. One of the weird consequences of these agreements is that Metrolinx is prohibited from selling Presto cards to Quebec residents--to prevent Gatineau residents from buying transit passes in Ottawa and taking advantage of the compatibility to use them in Quebec. So technically, someone from Montreal who wants to buy a Presto card for use as a tourist in Toronto actually can't, although in the GTA this is basically never enforced.)

 

[Megaton327]

OC Transpo (Ottawa's transit agency) is actually not subject to AODA.

Because OC Transpo has several routes that cross the interprovincial border into Gatineau, the entire system is constitutionally classified as an interprovincial transportation service, which puts it under federal jurisdiction, rather than provincial (just like railways and airlines).

As such, OC Transpo is not subject to the AODA and it's labour relations are subject to federal labour laws, not Ontario's. This is actually relevant in many ways; for example, federal dispute resolution rules apply in the event of a strike, and if wage negotations at OC Transpo ever go to arbitration, federal settlements are used as benchmarks instead of provincial ones.

(Incidentally, Presto works on Gatineau buses as well. It took a series of special agreements between Metrolinx and the Quebec government to make this happen. One of the weird consequences of these agreements is that Metrolinx is prohibited from selling Presto cards to Quebec residents--to prevent Gatineau residents from buying transit passes in Ottawa and taking advantage of the compatibility to use them in Quebec. So technically, someone from Montreal who wants to buy a Presto card for use as a tourist in Toronto actually can't, although in the GTA this is basically never enforced.)

Interesting, I didn't know that. Thanks! Makes sense, I'm familiar with many of the issues that arise from them being inter-provincial but didn't know that it would exclude them from the AODA.

However, my point stands with regards to GO, YRT/Viva, Oakville Transit, Burlington Transit, HSR, Durham Transit, MiWay, Brampton Transit, and the UPX, all of which--to the best of my recollection--display the charge/balance/time remaining upon a tap visually on a small display but not audibly. I think the UPX readers have a headphone jack but I don't recall seeing one on any other system's fare payment readers, all of which use the Gen1 train/bus lite/bus operator units (though Gen2 is certainly configurable for it per OCTranspo). So unless I'm missing something with respect to all of those as well, I'll maintain that the TTC is BSing on why they aren't displaying tap info...though I can't imagine any reason they're being so obstinate about such a simple, obvious thing and refusing to give a real reason for it.

 

[MetroMan]

I believe you or someone else posted this in the past--I tried apple pay with both my Visa credit and Interac debit cards on both my apple watch and my iPhone, on both a streetcar and at a subway station, and it did nothing each time. I'm not sure what happened when you tried it, but it definitely didn't happen for me, and there would be no reason to think that's possible.

It seems to work on some readers. This is the first time that it actually showed a green check mark though. I believe the last time it just gave me a prompt sound. I was new to PRESTO at the time so I can't recall what the sound meant.

I've also noticed that sometimes when I stand near a reader with my iPhone in my hand, the PRESTO terminal awakens ApplePay. This might work on all readers since they're all NFC and the iPhone is designed to go to ApplePay when near an NFC source.

I asked @BradTTC and he said that direct debit/credit tap is planned for the near future (once the initial rollout is complete) and ApplePay will work at the very least as a debit card tap. He couldn't confirm if we'd get the same implementation as TfL where you tap ApplePay on and off the London tube and on buses and it's recognized as one card.

 

[NotMathematical]

It seems to work on some readers. This is the first time that it actually showed a green check mark though. I believe the last time it just gave me a prompt sound. I was new to PRESTO at the time so I can't recall what the sound meant.

I've also noticed that sometimes when I stand near a reader with my iPhone in my hand, the PRESTO terminal awakens ApplePay. This might work on all readers since they're all NFC and the iPhone is designed to go to ApplePay when near an NFC source.

I asked @BradTTC and he said that direct debit/credit tap is planned for the near future (once the initial rollout is complete) and ApplePay will work at the very least as a debit card tap. He couldn't confirm if we'd get the same implementation as TfL where you tap ApplePay on and off the London tube and on buses and it's recognized as one card.

Washington DC's WMATA is testing an open payment pilot with the same PRESTO technology we have in Toronto. Most likely, its going to be a tap and go system for Toronto and it'll handle transfers like a regular PRESTO Card with Credit/Debit cards. By just having this ability, mobile payments via Apple Pay and Android Pay (One can only hope it'll come.) are automatically accepted.

 

[mdrejhon]

Are there newer generation Presto readers being installed on streetcars? While it hasn't worked on another streetcar when I tried recently, I tapped my AppleWatch with ApplePay (Scotiabank INTERAC) on a reader and it gave me an approved green check mark. I checked my account and it wasn't debited but it did read ApplePay and accepted it. I wonder if they're already rolling it out behind the scenes to accept debit tap payments but just haven't installed the full process yet. Or maybe I'll receive the charge in a few days.

Interest perked: Did a TTC charge show up on your online statement?

It seems like that Interac Direct/ApplePay payment is capable directly on the Presto readers (or already being beta tested on some readers). Problem is, not all reader hardware in Ontario support it (e.g. the older GO readers) -- so they can't really widely advertise this feature until it's rolled out widely on a specific transit authority. But neat to know it worked (if you got an appropriate charge on your statement). Probably a feature that will be advertised on a per-transit-authority basis (e.g. TTC).

This will be useful to me when I don't have enough left on my Presto card. Even after a $300 deposit, I sometimes burn through that a little faster than expected due to my Hamilton-Toronto commute.

 

[MetroMan]

I've checked every day for the last few days. No charge on my debit card. I guess I rode for fr.... hmmm... I tapped my PRESTO card just in case

It would be interesting to see that if enforcement had asked me for my POP and if I tapped my Watch if it would verify. It did say "Accepted" with a green checkmark.

I tried again today on the 510 directly on a PRESTO terminal: it didn't register. I bought a ticket at the ticket booth with my AppleWatch instead. It seems that maybe they're doing some sort of internal trial on some terminals.

Looking at the Washington DC example, we have exactly the same terminals so I'm not at all surprised that they're capable of scanning NFC devices like smartphones and smart watches.

 

[Zach6668]

The new fare gates at the main entrance of St. Clair station were in operation today. I would assume that means it's Presto-enabled, but since I was exiting, not entering, I didn't test that out.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

How will post-secondary TTC fares be handled once PRESTO becomes mandatory? From what I understand, presto does not yet support post-secondary fares.

 

[Megaton327]

From what I understand, presto does not yet support post-secondary fares.

Yes it does:

You may have meant to say "the TTC does not yet support Presto post-secondary fares". That is because the TTC only has a single post secondary fare, which is the $112/month Metropass. The TTC currently does not support any metropasses whatsoever on Presto, therefore the TTC does not support post-secondary fares on Presto. Technically speaking, once the TTC switches completely to Presto, there is no reason for there not to be a $112/month post secondary metropass; however, the TTC may, of course, decide to stop offering it, but in terms of Presto support there's no issue.

 

[steveintoronto]

It would be interesting to see that if enforcement had asked me for my POP and if I tapped my Watch if it would verify. It did say "Accepted" with a green checkmark.

That's a good point...

And that applies to this too:

You may have meant to say "the TTC does not yet support Presto post-secondary fares". That is because the TTC only has a single post secondary fare, which is the $112/month Metropass. The TTC currently does not support any metropasses whatsoever on Presto, therefore the TTC does not support post-secondary fares on Presto. Technically speaking, once the TTC switches completely to Presto, there is no reason for there not to be a $112/month post secondary metropass; however, the TTC may, of course, decide to stop offering it, but in terms of Presto support there's no issue.

If that default is on the card, how is the passenger charged? Is the default fare charged at full rate?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yes it does:

View attachment 80240

You may have meant to say "the TTC does not yet support Presto post-secondary fares". That is because the TTC only has a single post secondary fare, which is the $112/month Metropass. The TTC currently does not support any metropasses whatsoever on Presto, therefore the TTC does not support post-secondary fares on Presto. Technically speaking, once the TTC switches completely to Presto, there is no reason for there not to be a $112/month post secondary metropass; however, the TTC may, of course, decide to stop offering it, but in terms of Presto support there's no issue.

Oh great. I thought that Presto didn't support that, because of this post on their website: https://www.prestocard.ca/en-US/Pages/ContentPages/FaresTravel.aspx

I suppose the TTC will still need to issue student IDs even when Presto rolls out, unless Metrolinx were to handle student verification.

 

[Megaton327]

If that default is on the card, how is the passenger charged? Is the default fare charged at full rate?

Yes. Since the TTC has no single-ride post secondary fare, you are instead charged the adult fare of $2.90. I believe the TTC website actually technically lists $2.90 as the presto price for post secondary students and $3.25 as the cash price somewhere, to reinforce that only the pass is discounted.