Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Exactly. The majority of new phones coming out, except the iPhone, have NFC, which is starting to be used by Banks across canada for mobile payments. I find it so odd, because we actually have all the infrastructure already in place. Most merchant terminals already come with the ability to just tap your card on it. So the issue, I'm sure, comes from the need to implement certain security standards and encryptions for these mobile apps. Still, though, a mobile app just needs to interact with the terminals at the subway stations and buses, etc. They already have the back-end in place (the network that handles payments, etc). Apparently PRESTO in Ottawa is already ready to accept mobile payments from what I've heard, and when TTC finally starts rolling it out, we will too, in Toronto. If people could just download a free PRESTO app where they could register and login to their account as well as check their balance, top-up and pay for using transit, wouldn't that bee a much easier way to get into the hands of users and increase the rate of adoption for PRESTO? It just seems like a straightforward evolution IMO.

I'm curious if anyone has heard anything about this.

Edit: I know this is planned for the PRESTO next generation

Most of the infrastructure and security is already in place I would think, no? I mean those standalone readers (the ones that don't update like at union) communicate in some way with the central server don't they? Write an app that creates a secure encrypted connection to that server and allow whatever transactions you want. Missed an opportunity there.

 

[doady]

Washington Metro subway buys Presto system

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...shington_metro_subway_buys_presto_system.html

You gotta love the spin Spacing tried to put on this story. They tried to make it look like the WMATA system is much bigger than Toronto (and Ottawa) and therefore the costs of Presto are disproportionately and aubsurdly high for the Ontario systems. But the Star says that WMATA is smaller than TTC, let alone TTC plus GO, OC Transpo, Hamilton Street Railway, etc... who is right?

Boardings per weekday, 2012

WMATA heavy rail: 901.3k
WMATA bus: 411.1k

TTC demand response: 9.8k (paratransit??)
TTC heavy rail: 1011.7k
TTC intermediate rail: 46.4k
TTC light rail: 271.1k
TTC bus: 1425.3k

OC Transpo demand response: 2.8k
OC Transpo light rail: 13.6k
OC Transpo bus: 525.1k

GO Transit commuter rail: 174.4k
GO Transit bus: 70.5k

Durham Region Transit bus: 49.6k

York Region Transit bus: 96.9k

MiWay bus: 183.0k

Brampton Transit bus: 114.2k

Oakville Transit bus: 11.8k

Hamilton Street Railway bus: 87.7k

Looking at these numbers, is the fact the Presto cost $700M for GTA, Hamilton, Ottawa combined compared with $184M for Washington really that outrageous? You be the judge.

 

[ShonTron]

It's only for WAMTA - though you'd think that Washington Streetcar and other non-WAMTA transit providers in the region would be part of it. Commuter Rail is operated by two agencies - MARC (a subsidiary of the Maryland Transit Adminstration, a state agency, and Virginia Railway Express, owned indirectly by that state.

Since Washington's Metro has similar complex fare zones like GO, the Presto system made sense.

 

[nfitz]

It's only for WAMTA - though you'd think that Washington Streetcar and other non-WAMTA transit providers in the region would be part of it. Commuter Rail is operated by two agencies - MARC (a subsidiary of the Maryland Transit Adminstration, a state agency, and Virginia Railway Express, owned indirectly by that state.

Perhaps a requirement was that it could be used for multiple agencies.

Though other cards can do that. Orca, Oyster, and Opus off-hand.

 

[gweed123]

The government of Ontario holds the rights to the use of the system in Canada. Accenture owns the rights to the technology in the resto of the world. This was in exchange for supposedly free upgrades that Accenture would implement to the system as it evolved. If another system in Canada were to use Presto, Ontario would get compensation for using it. I believe there's some other advantages placed in the deal that would benefit Ontario if a certain amount of revenue is generated around the globe for Accenture. Overal, though, the system Ontario is implementing has a much larger scope and more complicated/ dynamic requirements to fit with each transit agencie's specific needs while allowing for one unified system. There's no doubt though that this technology was developed basically using the Ontario government's money.

It would be interesting to see if other municipalities not in Ontario adopted Presto. The one that makes the most sense of the top of my head is Gatineau (specifically STO, which is the transit service for Gatineau). Having fare payment card integration between OC Transpo and STO would be great. Merging the two systems would be very unlikely, but fare integration via Presto seems much more likely.

It would be nice if all major municipalities in Canada adopted the same system though. It would be really nice to be able to travel to a different city and be able to use the same card everywhere.

Side note: Has any municipality in the GTHA looked at adopting Presto for municipal parking lots? I know that for the occasional time I park in downtown TO at a Green P, being able to pay with a tap of my Presto card would be very convenient. I think for Presto to really grow, it needs to be usable for other things besides just transit fares.

 

[BMO]

It would be interesting to see if other municipalities not in Ontario adopted Presto. The one that makes the most sense of the top of my head is Gatineau (specifically STO, which is the transit service for Gatineau). Having fare payment card integration between OC Transpo and STO would be great. Merging the two systems would be very unlikely, but fare integration via Presto seems much more likely.

It would be nice if all major municipalities in Canada adopted the same system though. It would be really nice to be able to travel to a different city and be able to use the same card everywhere.

Side note: Has any municipality in the GTHA looked at adopting Presto for municipal parking lots? I know that for the occasional time I park in downtown TO at a Green P, being able to pay with a tap of my Presto card would be very convenient. I think for Presto to really grow, it needs to be usable for other things besides just transit fares.

Interesting point. It's not too far-fetched. The netherlands has one transit payment system throughout the country that is used on the regional rails and local transit. Considering the tremendous expanse and large distances between cities in Canada, I doubt we'll see a unified solution throughout the entire country, but I wouldn't be suprised if we see PRESTO implemented all the way through the Windsor-Quebec corridor, especially if High Speed rail ever gets implemented.

 

[gweed123]

Interesting point. It's not too far-fetched. The netherlands has one transit payment system throughout the country that is used on the regional rails and local transit. Considering the tremendous expanse and large distances between cities in Canada, I doubt we'll see a unified solution throughout the entire country, but I wouldn't be suprised if we see PRESTO implemented all the way through the Windsor-Quebec corridor, especially if High Speed rail ever gets implemented.

Yeah, the QC-Windsor corridor is what I was thinking as initial implementation as well. I think the toughest sell would be Montreal though. Gatineau would probably do it because of Ottawa, and I can see cities like Kingston, London, and Windsor adopting it simply because the economies of scale would already be established, and it would be easier to adopt that than another off-the-shelf product.

 

[ShonTron]

Yeah, the QC-Windsor corridor is what I was thinking as initial implementation as well. I think the toughest sell would be Montreal though. Gatineau would probably do it because of Ottawa, and I can see cities like Kingston, London, and Windsor adopting it simply because the economies of scale would already be established, and it would be easier to adopt that than another off-the-shelf product.

Montreal, the AMT (commuter rail), and the inner suburbs of Laval and Longueuil and the outer suburban CITs all use the OPUS card, as well as Quebec City and Levis (south shore).

The only large systems in Quebec not yet using OPUS are Gatineau (which I agree, should be part of Presto) and Sherbrooke. (Not counting smaller systems in Trois-Rivieres/Mauricie, Saguenay, etc)

 

[gweed123]

Montreal, the AMT (commuter rail), and the inner suburbs of Laval and Longueuil and the outer suburban CITs all use the OPUS card, as well as Quebec City and Levis (south shore).

The only large systems in Quebec not yet using OPUS are Gatineau (which I agree, should be part of Presto) and Sherbrooke. (Not counting smaller systems in Trois-Rivieres/Mauricie, Saguenay, etc)

True. I'm not that familiar with the fare payment system in Montreal, but yes I agree that switching to Presto wouldn't be very likely.

When it comes to smaller systems in Ontario though (by small I'm thinking places like Cornwall, Brantford, etc), it would be interesting to see a cost-benefit analysis of going with Presto vs going with another payment system vs sticking with their current system. I honestly have no idea what the outcome of that analysis would be. If it ends up being neutral or leaning towards Presto, I can see them definitely going for it. If it turns out that status quo is the best option, I can't see them adopting Presto just to 'get in on the action'.

 

[BMO]

Maybe Both PRESTO and OPUS could be able to accept each other on their systems in the future. I heard GRT is choosing an open fare payment system that isn't PRESTO but will be able to accept PRESTO for payments.

 

[gweed123]

Maybe Both PRESTO and OPUS could be able to accept each other on their systems in the future. I heard GRT is choosing an open fare payment system that isn't PRESTO but will be able to accept PRESTO for payments.

I was going to ask what K-W had chosen for their LRT system. Thanks! Haha. Maybe when Presto moves to v3.0 they'll integrate the option to use Opus, but I don't think that will happen for a while. The transition from 1.0 to 2.0 has been enough of a pain for them I think. If it ever does get included, I think it will be rolled into an upgrade package that had another, bigger reason for initiating the update (ex: using Bluetooth payment via smartphone).

 

[TOareaFan]

I was going to ask what K-W had chosen for their LRT system. Thanks! Haha. Maybe when Presto moves to v3.0 they'll integrate the option to use Opus, but I don't think that will happen for a while. The transition from 1.0 to 2.0 has been enough of a pain for them I think. If it ever does get included, I think it will be rolled into an upgrade package that had another, bigger reason for initiating the update (ex: using Bluetooth payment via smartphone).

I am no tech genius but bluetooth (as it exists today) would be a horrible payment option....devices have to "find" each other and the be "paired" to each other and then be told to transmit whatever it is you want to transmit.

NFC is a far more efficient technology for payment and why Blackberry and Android phones (for the past, what, 3 years) have all had them in them.....it is the most likely tech solution to quick, efficient, convenient payment systems.

 

[gweed123]

I am no tech genius but bluetooth (as it exists today) would be a horrible payment option....devices have to "find" each other and the be "paired" to each other and then be told to transmit whatever it is you want to transmit.

NFC is a far more efficient technology for payment and why Blackberry and Android phones (for the past, what, 3 years) have all had them in them.....it is the most likely tech solution to quick, efficient, convenient payment systems.

Just actually read this article yesterday. Seems like an interesting bit of technology: http://www.macrumors.com/2014/01/16/ibeacon-mobile-payments/

NFC is more promising right now, but it certainly has its drawbacks.

 

[BMO]

I am no tech genius but bluetooth (as it exists today) would be a horrible payment option....devices have to "find" each other and the be "paired" to each other and then be told to transmit whatever it is you want to transmit.

NFC is a far more efficient technology for payment and why Blackberry and Android phones (for the past, what, 3 years) have all had them in them.....it is the most likely tech solution to quick, efficient, convenient payment systems.

Depending on what information you're trying to get or pass off, NFC usually starts a bluetooth connection for information transfer. The NFC tag tells the phone exactly what protocols to use to connect to the host Bluetooth device. Overall, though, you're right BT wouldn't usually be used for mobile payments.

 

[TOareaFan]

Depending on what information you're trying to get or pass off, NFC usually starts a bluetooth connection for information transfer. The NFC tag tells the phone exactly what protocols to use to connect to the host Bluetooth device. Overall, though, you're right BT wouldn't usually be used for mobile payments.

I be a layman but I knew there were a techy explanation....all I know is that the limited NFC applications that have come out have been a lot simpler to us folks to use than having to use BT (which, in its appropriate uses, also has its wow applications...just can't see transit being one of them).