Mass/rapid transit..........................what would you do?

[nfitz]

Prefabricated, in situ--doesn't matter. They're high-rise, free-standing, and "Corbusian". And, myth has it, commie states built them by the acre. Ergo, "commie block".

So you are backing away from your original definition.

In the decades I've lived in this country, including some of the buildings in question, I've never once heard a real person refer to them as "commie blocks".

Then again, maybe I'd have to define "Corbusian" for you all; in which case, it's a no-win situation...

I can't say it's a word I use often, but I assume you are using it to refer to works in the style of Le Corbusier. Or perhaps you have redefined it somehow ...

 

[ssiguy2]

Let's keep on topic!!
Does anyone know the basic costs of using existing rail ROWs for subways?
Remember the premise of this thread is what you would do with the $8.15 billion Metrolinx has for rapid transit for the city over the next 10 years.
Do you think that maybe everything should be cancelled to put the money into one line only? Maybe just a 30km Eglinton line or a DM to Pearson via a DRL using the Oshawa and Georgetown rail corridors? Maybe creating no new lines at all but rather extending all of the current ones suchas Finch to Thornhill, DB to U.T Scar, Bloor to Sherway, SRT to Malvern, and finishing the entire Sheppard line east to STC and west to Spadina.
One of the primary concerns I have always had with TC is that in it's desire to serve all areas with decent transit the result is that no one gets served well. Maybe Toronto should finish what it has before it starts anything new.
What do you think remembering the $8.15 billion budget.

 

[EnviroTO]

They are finishing the University line with the extension to Vaughan Centre. Nobody in their right mind would extend the subway beyond highway 7. The Yonge line also is a Big Move project and it is really just as likely to be the next subway segment built as the DRL, although the DRL is more valuable and once some of the initial Transit City lines are up and running the DRL will become a necessary priority. Transit City is being built where (besides the SRT) it makes less sense to build subway from a capacity standpoint. There doesn't seem to have been any funding pulled from the existing railway corridors. The Georgetown Line still has full support, Union Station is still the most important project in the city, there is other projects lined up on the Lakeshore, Stouffville, and Barrie corridors, and a Richmond Hill corridor extension.

 

[GraphicMatt]

One of the primary concerns I have always had with TC is that in it's desire to serve all areas with decent transit the result is that no one gets served well. Maybe Toronto should finish what it has before it starts anything new.

It's weird how people who don't live in Toronto regard the subway as the only decent transit in the city. I'm experiencing this right now with friends who insist that they get an apartment on the subway line, as if Little Italy, Parkdale, West Queen West, Leslieville, etc. are transit wastelands.

The surface system in Toronto certainly has its problems but I'd argue that the downtown streetcar network and many bus routes still serve people fairly well.

 

[Chuck]

The surface system in Toronto certainly has its problems but I'd argue that the downtown streetcar network and many bus routes still serve people fairly well.

Why put of with "fairly" good transit service when excellent service can be found along a subway line? Just like people who drive, the majority of people who use transit want to get to their destination as fast as possible.

 

[Second_in_pie]

And the point I'd like to make clear is that TC tries to artificially make a good network by just servicing everywhere. It's true that this is with LRTs and the service won't be nearly as good, but that's not the point. I'd much prefer to get maybe an extra 3 subway lines that penetrate through densely populated areas so that the area of influence for our transit network can grow, rather than just give everyone an improved service. One may call me some sort of sick people trying to destroy the lives of people in the outer suburbs, but it's logical transit planning. Our bus routes work phenomenally well, the big problem is that the RT routes that form the backbone of our system are lacking. Both subways are becoming increasingly crowded, and they can't penetrate far enough into the suburbs. If you were to extend Sheppard to Agincourt and put up Eglinton West and the TYSSE, you'd get the entire city in that range that it's just a comfortable 20 minute bus ride form the subway, if that. Then once you have that bare bones network for the city, you can add new RT in new bottlenecks, build up new high density corridors, and create avenues and mid density areas to be served by upgrades local service such as BRT and LRT.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

And the point I'd like to make clear is that TC tries to artificially make a good network by just servicing everywhere.

Transit City doesn't serve everywhere. Everywhere would mean serving Steeles and Wilson and Lawrence and Queen and Dufferin and Kipling and Warden and......

 

[EnviroTO]

Both subways are becoming increasingly crowded, and they can't penetrate far enough into the suburbs. If you were to extend Sheppard to Agincourt and put up Eglinton West and the TYSSE, you'd get the entire city in that range that it's just a comfortable 20 minute bus ride form the subway, if that.

If both subways are becoming increasingly crowded then why build a subway which relieves a bus route? The DRL would relieve the overload on the Yonge Line and the overloaded section of the Bloor Line, and upgrading the SRT to a subway relieves the overloaded SRT. If you look at the most overloaded parts of the subway system there is no way you can argue a subway from Fairview Mall to Agincourt is going to do something about it. LRT is a great way to deal with overloaded bus routes as it provides both greater capacity and efficiency.

 

[adma]

In the decades I've lived in this country, including some of the buildings in question, I've never once heard a real person refer to them as "commie blocks".

In which case, you're overly betraying your decades(!) in this country.

Well, of course you might not have heard of it--AFAIK the term literally did not exist until very recently. It's virtually entirely a product of the skyscraper/urban-message-board realm and era.

And...even I agree that it seemed pre-pubescently puerile and misleading, the first time I encountered it. But over time, I feel it's actually trickled up to be an affectionate term, even when used seemingly indiscriminately.

I wouldn't take it at all seriously as a scholarly term. However, as a piece of social anthropology, I'd absolutely take it seriously--it's perhaps the most successful bit of "urban vernacular" to emerge from the aforementioned message-board realm...

 

[Fresh Start]

It's weird how people who don't live in Toronto regard the subway as the only decent transit in the city. I'm experiencing this right now with friends who insist that they get an apartment on the subway line, as if Little Italy, Parkdale, West Queen West, Leslieville, etc. are transit wastelands.

The surface system in Toronto certainly has its problems but I'd argue that the downtown streetcar network and many bus routes still serve people fairly well.

Smart friends. I frequent the aforementioned nabes you describe and streetcar service there is dodgy at best, particularly along Queen Street - lots of outbound cars, not enough inbound when trying to gt to YUS. And I still don't know why it takes a half-hour to get from Queen/Roncesvelles to YUS. Buses running north-south from B-D are very reliable though and it's not uncommon to witness 3-4 buses per direction running up and down their route in the time it takes for the streetcar to arrive. Next to the subway, GO Transit is the best method for getting around the city, bar none. When I take the train from Union to Guildwood it's only 25 minutes; the TTC's over an hour. I'm honestly more excited for the day when full fare integration with GO Transit and more frequent service becomes reality, as well more interlining of routes e.g. merging Georgetown with Stoufville and Milton with Richmond Hill for complete interregionality and less transferring and waittimes.

 

[shilly]

I disagree. I love being able to take the 501 from Leslieville to Yonge in 20 mins. A subway on Queen would be ideal but it will never happen.

You neglected to say what time of day you are travelling at. At three in the morning and I'm stumbling drunk, the streetcar will always be the better way and I also understand it isn't at the same service levels it's at during the rush hour periods. So I will sway there standing by the pole and get on and be home within 30 mins. Usually always. Unless there is an accident in which case I'll walk...err stumble.

The night bus is great fun. If you weren't such a sucky ass , you'd appreciate the brutal honesty that it provides. And the humour. If you can take riding the night bus across Bloor from Kipling east in stride, you'll be well prepared to survive urban living.

 

[Fresh Start]

Let's keep on topic!!
Does anyone know the basic costs of using existing rail ROWs for subways?
Remember the premise of this thread is what you would do with the $8.15 billion Metrolinx has for rapid transit for the city over the next 10 years.
Do you think that maybe everything should be cancelled to put the money into one line only? Maybe just a 30km Eglinton line or a DM to Pearson via a DRL using the Oshawa and Georgetown rail corridors?

Subways and Busways

Downtown Relief Subway (Phase 1): Pearson to St Lawrence Market via Eglinton West = $5.45 billion
Bloor-Danforth Subway extension: Kennedy to Scarborough Centre via Danforth-McCowan Rds (completion) = $1.5 billion
Scarborough Busway: Kennedy/Ellesmere to Highway 2/Militray Trail via Scarborough Centre, Progress Campus, Malvern TC/UTSC = $390 million
Finch Crosstown Busway (Phase 1): Highway 27 Stn to Bridletowne Mall via Finch Ave. West and Cherrywood corridor = $810 million
----
Total: $8.15 billion (using industry standard costing and various construction methods)

Over 71 kilometres of REAL grade-separated or exclusive right-of-way mass transit that reaches the far corners of the city - from Mississauga all the way across to Highland Creek. I would put a moratorium on placing light-rail down Sheppard East until the funding became available to complete the subway to Scaborough Ctr. With the busway within close proximity all the way past Morningside and the likelihood of permitting local routes (131, 132, 39, et al.) to share that roadway, a LRT along Sheppard is irrelevant. Finch residents deserve mass transit capable of getting them all the way across the city without need for transfers. Running buses through the hydro corridor would allow for crosstown trips from Etobicoke to Scarborough to be completed in as little as 45 minutes.

The DRL eastern leg may be more urgent in terms of alleviating the Bloor-Yonge interchange, but DRL west is more urgent towards alleviating the downtown streetcar routes because most major destinations/trip generators east-west through the core occur west of Yonge Street. The routing through to the airport using Parkside/Keele, the Weston-Galt, Eglinton, Martin Grove and Dixon Rd sets the necessary groundwork in place for a future extension of subways right across the Eglinton corridor, but at least for now residents of York-Eglinton and Mt Dennis can have alternatives to heading east to YUS in order to get downtown. Then in incremental phases we complete both Eglinton and DRL lines first with Eglinton stretching over to Yonge and DRL to Pape/Danforth, followed by a third phase rejoining them at Wynford Heights Dr.

 

[ssiguy2]

If I were Metrolinx I would put a halt to the SELRT and Malvern SRT and transfer the SRT over to subway using the current route.but no further than STC as the city has busier corridors and more pressing needs. Eventually the stubway will be extended east to STC and would be ideal if it went to Agincourt and then headed south to interline with the BD STC extension.
After that I have to confess i'm not really sure.A REAL Eglinton crosstown suchas Guilwood to Pearon or a DRL to Pearson and Eg/DM . The concern I have is that if the city tries to build small sections of each line then Toronto will have a larger network of stubways that result in little time saved and even more transfers. The last thing we need is a city full of stubways.

 

[EnviroTO]

Downtown Relief Subway (Phase 1): Pearson to St Lawrence Market via Eglinton West = $5.45 billion

Nutty. A DRL via Eglinton West from Pearson? The east side is more important for eliminating bottlenecks and there is a subway from Eglinton West to a station 2 blocks west of St.Lawrence Market already.

 

[Fresh Start]

Nutty. A DRL via Eglinton West from Pearson? The east side is more important for eliminating bottlenecks and there is a subway from Eglinton West to a station 2 blocks west of St.Lawrence Market already.

That should read "via Eglinton Avenue West", not to be confused with the existing subway stop. It's not all that nutty if one considers that the goal here is trying to secure future subway expansion along both corridors: DRL and Eglinton Crosstown. Unlike building say a Eglinton subway from Allen to Jane Street and a DRL from Pape/Danforth to Union; a full 22 kilometre stretch of subway fulfills at least some signifcant distance of travel covered by subway, transfer-free from the airport to downtown - and captures far more densely populated areas of Toronto en route right away rather than postpone them getting real mass transit (Weston-Mt Dennis, Junction-High Park North, Parkdale, Liberty, Cityplace). It also would divert tens of thousands of northern Etobicoke residents and Peel Region transit users away from the bottleneck that is the Six-Points area (whom at all times of day typically fill up inbound trains to the extent that by Keele Stn one would be hard-pressed to find seating onboard). And Mount Dennis Stn in my hypothetical there would be double-platformed a la St George to make the expansion eastwards far simpler.

DRL eastern leg only works if it can be built all the way to Don Mills and Eglinton in one shot, to Danforth-Union only will not in any significant way alleviate B-Y as many will still rely on the traditional method when heading downtown. But with several extensive bridge crossings and the unlikelihood that CnC could be used more often than TBM, this leg is far too much to bite off with a mere $8 billion. Large swaths of DRL West by contrast could be built at- or above grade, with savings of more than $2 Bn vs. a completely tunnel bored exercise. And remember that via the Bloor-Danforth extension and grade-separated busways, east of Yonge already stands to gain 30 kilometres worth of rapid transit per my idea so the investments on both sides of the city would balance eachother out.