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London Rapid Transit (In-Design)

Wow, they are really getting a move on with the Wellington Gateway line.

As for extending the Wellington BRT to serve Amazon, I was not talking every bus but rather something along the lines of running every 4th bus past White Oaks to serve the Amazon area and go right into downtown St.Thomas and as noted by Duffo's map, White Oaks in right near the 401 and could make the trip to downtown St.Thomas in just 24 minutes which makes it VERY competive with the car. . This would help Londoners but also St.Thomas as it would give an option for St.Thomas residents to get to the plant and onwards to London on a one ticket ride and by being an extension of the BRT, it wouldn't require a transfer at White Oaks to get downtown. Wellington is also VERY congested and with the BRT, people could actually get downtown faster than driving.

Any service MUST be provided by London Transit because St.Thomas Transit simply doesn't have the ability to do it. Remember this plant will run 24/7 and that requires a large transit provider and not one with limited and infrequent service. Also the BRT will use larger articulated electric buses so they can provide the capacity needed in peak times.

A financial agreement could be made where Elgin county helps subsidize the route and a ticket once crossing the Middilesex/Elgin boundary requires a top-up fare.
 
ssiguy2 said:
Wow, they are really getting a move on with the Wellington Gateway line.

As for extending the Wellington BRT to serve Amazon, I was not talking every bus but rather something along the lines of running every 4th bus past White Oaks to serve the Amazon area and go right into downtown St.Thomas and as noted by Duffo's map, White Oaks in right near the 401 and could make the trip to downtown St.Thomas in just 24 minutes which makes it VERY competive with the car. . This would help Londoners but also St.Thomas as it would give an option for St.Thomas residents to get to the plant and onwards to London on a one ticket ride and by being an extension of the BRT, it wouldn't require a transfer at White Oaks to get downtown. Wellington is also VERY congested and with the BRT, people could actually get downtown faster than driving.

Any service MUST be provided by London Transit because St.Thomas Transit simply doesn't have the ability to do it. Remember this plant will run 24/7 and that requires a large transit provider and not one with limited and infrequent service. Also the BRT will use larger articulated electric buses so they can provide the capacity needed in peak times.

A financial agreement could be made where Elgin county helps subsidize the route and a ticket once crossing the Middilesex/Elgin boundary requires a top-up fare.
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Should get Amazon to kick in some funding to help their employees without cars to to/from either city as well if they need workers in the first place. The trip between Amazon and St Thomas will a lost ratio route on an 7/24 schedule as there is next to nothing along the route to encourage ridership today. Maybe some down the road. St Thomas the last I saw 2 years ago had only cutaway busses while London has 40's.
 
The main issue I have with the Wellington "gateway" is that the CN underpass near downtown will not be widened. Buses will run in mixed traffic here and this underpass is congested enough as it is. Doesn't make for very reliable 'rapid' transit if it takes them 3 light cycles to get through this section.

drum118 said:
Should get Amazon to kick in some funding to help their employees without cars to to/from either city as well if they need workers in the first place.
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...When pigs fly! Guess we'll see soon enough if they run into issues attracting workers.
 
Haljackey said:
The main issue I have with the Wellington "gateway" is that the CN underpass near downtown will not be widened. Buses will run in mixed traffic here and this underpass is congested enough as it is. Doesn't make for very reliable 'rapid' transit if it takes them 3 light cycles to get through this section.



...When pigs fly! Guess we'll see soon enough if they run into issues attracting workers.
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London is a car city and there should be enough workers to drive to Amazon plant than use transit.
 
drum118 said:
London is a car city and there should be enough workers to drive to Amazon plant than use transit.
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Isn't that like saying there should be enough workers to drive to downtown so we shouldn't bother building the OL? I thought the whole purpose of expanding transit was to make sure that people DON'T have to rely on a car to get around and to make sure that people of all socio-economic and ability levels can access jobs. We should be encouraging equity and not make excuses for why it can't happen.

One of the biggest drawbacks of streetcars/LRT is that they are completely inflexible unlike BRT which allows for interlining and express routes. We are also not just talking but Amazon here. Amazon may be the impetus but the need for regular, reliable transit between St.Thomas and London is overdue by decades. there is a LOT of commuter traffic between the two and both cities are growing very fast and yet right now the only way to get from one to the other is by taxi.
 
ssiguy2 said:
Isn't that like saying there should be enough workers to drive to downtown so we shouldn't bother building the OL? I thought the whole purpose of expanding transit was to make sure that people DON'T have to rely on a car to get around and to make sure that people of all socio-economic and ability levels can access jobs. We should be encouraging equity and not make excuses for why it can't happen.

One of the biggest drawbacks of streetcars/LRT is that they are completely inflexible unlike BRT which allows for interlining and express routes. We are also not just talking but Amazon here. Amazon may be the impetus but the need for regular, reliable transit between St.Thomas and London is overdue by decades. there is a LOT of commuter traffic between the two and both cities are growing very fast and yet right now the only way to get from one to the other is by taxi.
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Lets put this way, There are systems in NA, let alone Toronto using the wrong technology in the wrong place with the goal of getting ppl to use transit in place of a car.

I see London and Hamilton being hubs to outline areas to allow ppl to get to/from small towns and cities as there is a lack of intercity service for decades. Quality of service will most likely poor in the beginning for most routes while a few will see better service due to demand.

I have no issue with service between St Thomas and London, but the cost ratio will be low in the beginning.

There is nothing wrong having an BRT line as that will be the best X route will every need.

I have the step back when it was proposed an LRT system be built in London when it was hard to justify the network in the first place for getting around the city. I have ridden a number of routes that ran all over the place and only picking up a few riders. The best then as now is an BRT.

The person I knew in London had to do a lot of back tracking to get to where they wanted to go to in the first place that it took 2 hours to do the trip compare to a 15 minute car drive. They no long reside there anymore nor use transit.
 
Now with the massive Volkswagen plant a go, the need for good transit service between London and St.Thomas is a bigger issue than ever.

London is rebuilding it's manufacturing base faster than any other city in the country and nearly all of it is south of the 401 where transit service is limited. It's not just the VW plant but also the massive Amazon plant on the other side of St.Thomas. Amazon is laying off thousands in the world but that will not effect this plant. At first they were planning on 1500 workers but now it is up to 2000. This is not just another distribution centre but rather an incredibly high-tech one. There are only 5 other Amazon plants like it on the entire plant and 75% of the plant will be devoted to robotics.................this plant is there for the long-term and will offer significantly higher wages than your standard distribution centre. This is to say nothing about all the other plants and services that will spring up around these plants to serve and supply them.

Costco is building a huge store south of the 401 along Wellington and Maple Leaf Foods recently opened a huge plant south of the 401 along Highbury {the same road as VW} and has already hired 400 workers and will need another 1000 by the end of this year. Both are within city limits but have very limited transit service only served by local buses radiating from White Oaks mall just north of the 401 and the terminus of the future BRT.

The ideal situation would be for the BRT buses {perhaps every other one} to be extended south of the 401 and then split with both going to St.Thomas with one heading there via Highbury serving ML & VW and the other via Wellington to serve Amazon and then heading into downtown St.Thomas and heading back creating a huge loop connecting the cities. This would also result in regular all day/late night service providing service to St.Thomas from these plants with large articulated electric BRT buses with is a service St.Thomas transit can simply not provide.
 
ssiguy2 said:
Now with the massive Volkswagen plant a go, the need for good transit service between London and St.Thomas is a bigger issue than ever.

London is rebuilding it's manufacturing base faster than any other city in the country and nearly all of it is south of the 401 where transit service is limited. It's not just the VW plant but also the massive Amazon plant on the other side of St.Thomas. Amazon is laying off thousands in the world but that will not effect this plant. At first they were planning on 1500 workers but now it is up to 2000. This is not just another distribution centre but rather an incredibly high-tech one. There are only 5 other Amazon plants like it on the entire plant and 75% of the plant will be devoted to robotics.................this plant is there for the long-term and will offer significantly higher wages than your standard distribution centre. This is to say nothing about all the other plants and services that will spring up around these plants to serve and supply them.

Costco is building a huge store south of the 401 along Wellington and Maple Leaf Foods recently opened a huge plant south of the 401 along Highbury {the same road as VW} and has already hired 400 workers and will need another 1000 by the end of this year. Both are within city limits but have very limited transit service only served by local buses radiating from White Oaks mall just north of the 401 and the terminus of the future BRT.

The ideal situation would be for the BRT buses {perhaps every other one} to be extended south of the 401 and then split with both going to St.Thomas with one heading there via Highbury serving ML & VW and the other via Wellington to serve Amazon and then heading into downtown St.Thomas and heading back creating a huge loop connecting the cities. This would also result in regular all day/late night service providing service to St.Thomas from these plants with large articulated electric BRT buses with is a service St.Thomas transit can simply not provide.
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Surprised about the Costco store as there is already one there south of the 401. I guess the lack of parking and no fuel pumps and maybe a larger store is the reason for the new location.

Full agree on the move to have transit in place to St Thomas by Q1 2024 and no later than Q4 2024. Unless the Fed's and the province is prepared to kick in funding now, it will take time to plan the service, figure out the cost of the route, how to pay for it, are more buses need to be order to support the route and if so, you are looking at about an year to get those buses depending on how many is needed.

You will not get an true BRT route south of the 401, but a limit express,
 
Just a note that the new Costco opened a few weeks ago and the old store closed. BRT south of the 401 was never proposed in any form during the planning. BRT lanes run as far south as White Oaks mall, with a future potential of a mixed traffic extension to a yet to be built commuter lot near the 401/Wellington Road interchange.

In town, lots of construction headaches this year from BRT and other infrastructure renewal. If you're headed downtown, stay clear of Dundas east and Wellington south as those are where the current BRT projects are.
 
Was there bus service to the old Ford plant?
If not, why would it be any different?

These are not low paying warehouse jobs.
 
I believe that express buses, not BRT, is probably the best way to link St. Thomas and London together with transit. BRT makes sense in London up to the 401 because of all the traffic, but after that, it dies down significantly. A widened Highbury and/or Wellington to 4 lanes with express buses linking into the BRT system will likely be sufficient until St. Thomas develops further and the gulf between the two cities closes.

Either way, improving the transportation links between the two is going to be the key for success in this massive push toward London region’s re-industrialization. Doubly so if more of the rumoured potential developments/investments (such as Audi beside VW/PowerCo or Boeing near the airport) materialize.

It is a very exciting time right now for SW Ontario.
 
micheal_can said:
Could this push the area to build a regional bus network?
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It goes back to about 2008 when I saw ML operating from Windsor to Kingston/ US to North Bay that various cities need to become hub to service places 30 minutes around them as well having intercity service to these hubs.

St Thomas was a very industrialized place as well London in the past and can be greater than the past with transit play a big roll in doing it, So there is no reason a Regional system cannot be setup like York, Durham and the Niagara Region to service the area around London/St Thomas other than cost and the political will.

It will help to reduced the need for a vehicle and take traffic off the road as well encourage growth and development for the areas.
 
I should have been more precise in the way I worded service to St.Thomas.

The BRT is going to Exeter Road which is just north of the 401. After that bus-only lanes will not be required to get to St.Thomas and, as noted, should be express buses with, for example, with every 4th bus going to ST via Highbury and every 4th buses going to ST via Wellington and creating a large loop.

As far as the logistics of it, I don't think it will be as difficult as it is being made out to be. ST Transit will have nothing to do with the service as it is simply too small a system to provide the articulated buses and frequent 7 days a week service that will be required. GO Transit could get involved but I don't think that is ideal and hence this will be an LT service.

Certainly London isn't going to be doing this for free and will require a subsidy from QP & ST.Thomas city but with the benefits it provides I don't think ST will hesitate nor QP as they are already sinking a monstrous amount into this plant and want to see it succeed and that means being able to provide the workers. A shortage of workers due to not being able to get to their employment is not a message QP wants to send to other businesses that maybe looking to set up shop in Ontario.
 
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