Charges haven’t been laid yet, but Trudeau is calling this a terrorist attack.
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London (Ontario) vehicular terrorist attack
- Thread starter PinkLucy
- Start date
Jonny5
Senior Member
It's weird seeing people say they are "surprised by this happening in London", and also people on the other side pointing fingers about how "See! Canada is racist!"
That London, Ontario is a hole of virulent racists has been fundamentally known and talked about in Ontario for decades. I heard it from anyone who lived there 20 years ago. I heard it from people who had never been there 20 years ago. And I'm only 39 years old. It's not new or news.
Indeed, it's shocking it took this long for something like this to happen there. I will still be very interested to glean information about the specific steps that this 20 year-old went through to get to a point to casually murder five people, especially since that, superficially, the information released so far doesn't point to any particular life or economic challenges he faced at the moment he did it.
And if you now think London is bad... check out the surrounding suburban small towns.
That London, Ontario is a hole of virulent racists has been fundamentally known and talked about in Ontario for decades. I heard it from anyone who lived there 20 years ago. I heard it from people who had never been there 20 years ago. And I'm only 39 years old. It's not new or news.
Indeed, it's shocking it took this long for something like this to happen there. I will still be very interested to glean information about the specific steps that this 20 year-old went through to get to a point to casually murder five people, especially since that, superficially, the information released so far doesn't point to any particular life or economic challenges he faced at the moment he did it.
And if you now think London is bad... check out the surrounding suburban small towns.
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afransen
Senior Member
While probably racist, I think there must be a degree of mental illness involved. One does not throw one's life away murdering a family of strangers just out of prejudice.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
It isn't necessary or helpful to put the blame on mental illness, just not having a life would be sufficient, no?
AoD
lenaitch
Senior Member
What motivates humans to do things, particularly those counter to acceptable social norms, has consumed volumes for centuries. Some argue that the simple act of committing homicide, whatever the reason, has an element of mental illness because what right-thinking person would do such a thing - which is complete poppycock.
Who knows what was going on in his head. He might not have viewed as prejudice, he might have viewed it as a personal crusade. He might have seen it as vengeance for a perceived failed life. Simply blind anger against an available target? What will be important, and no doubt delved, is whether his mental state at the time amounts to him not being criminally responsible for his act. The Crown doesn't really have to prove why he did it.
afransen
Senior Member
This piece has a bit more background on the perpetrator. His co-worker and friend, who is an Iranian lapsed Muslim, said that he never seemed to have a problem with him. The perpetrator's grandmother passed away on Friday. I think the conclusion everyone jumped to that this was a terrorist attack or hate crime is looking shakier. We should wait for the investigation to conclude.
afransen
Senior Member
I'm not suggesting he is not criminally responsible. The bar for that is quite high. It just does not strike me as having any degree of rationality in motivation. I understand the logic of gang killings, etc. I understand the logic of honour killings (like the Shafia family in Kingston). Hopefully it is not necessary to say I can understand the logic but strongly condemn these crimes. This attack in London is more of a puzzle.
I'm more concerned about people making hay out of this as a hate crime when it is not clearly established to be so.
daniel_kryz
Active Member
This is a terrible tragedy. I worry how the kid will live for the rest of his life without a family. I wish our country was more peaceful and harmonious.
One thing that does annoy me is the constant use of 'white supremacy', without any context or proof that that is the case. The term applies to people that think whites are better than non-whites. We still don't know if that's the case here, so using this term is misleading. So I believe it's far more appropriate to speculate that it is 'islamophobia' or 'hate'. Problem is, there's a trend in assuming that since the perpetrator is white, therefore it must be white supremacy. It's wrong to do that, just like it's wrong to assume that a violent act committed by a Muslim is terrorism. Singling out a certain group of people based on race is the definition of racism, and we shouldn't fight racism with reverse-racism.
One thing that does annoy me is the constant use of 'white supremacy', without any context or proof that that is the case. The term applies to people that think whites are better than non-whites. We still don't know if that's the case here, so using this term is misleading. So I believe it's far more appropriate to speculate that it is 'islamophobia' or 'hate'. Problem is, there's a trend in assuming that since the perpetrator is white, therefore it must be white supremacy. It's wrong to do that, just like it's wrong to assume that a violent act committed by a Muslim is terrorism. Singling out a certain group of people based on race is the definition of racism, and we shouldn't fight racism with reverse-racism.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Indeed. If it were the other way round and a Muslim man ran down a white family the government would be dissuading us from using the terrorist term, even though xenophobes, rednecks and racists would jump on it right away.
When Jaskirat Singh Sidhu wiped out the Humboldt Broncos with his truck no reasonable person suggested he was a Sikh extremist. Maybe this guy in London just jumped the curb while scrolling through his phone, panicked and took off. Let's wait and see.
lenaitch
Senior Member
We are in very early days of the investigation. No doubt as investigators probe his private and public (such as is, apparently) more will be learned, but I don't think we should expect many grand updates in order to protect the integrity of the investigation. Among other things, media will probably try to access search warrant document and publish them as proof of allegations.
There is little control over what the formal media, social media, politician and pretty much anyone with opposable thumbs thinks and expresses. The apparent fact that the accused was previously below or off the radar presents a more 'sterile' starting point for investigators, but also a more open palate for commentators who, at the end of the day, aren't really accountable for what they say beyond slander and libel.
These are obviously senseless crimes, but they may have made prefect sense to him at the time. We shall see, and we should wait, but I'm naïve to believe that will happen. History is full of horrific crimes committed without apparent reason - at the time
I'm on record believing that layering on terrorism charges will do little, and may in fact complicate, the state's legal response (with the information known at this point regarding this single accused), but am also aware of the compelling pressure to include them if the evidence is there.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
If the justice system doesn't add and convict on a terrorism charge then the driver will be charged with four charges of careless driving causing death and one count of careless driving causing injury, same as Marco Muzzo, but with added "leaving the scene" charges. That'll garner him at best a ten year sentence, with Muzzo-like full parole within three years, even less if this driver wasn't impaired but simply distracted.
The optics of this driver receiving a light sentence after running down this family will put the pressure on the prosecution to make a terrorism charge. But if I was this guy's defence attorney I would be arguing that he has no history of islamophobia or extremist views (unless there's evidence he does), and instead he was distracted, accidentally ran the family over and then panicked and fled the scene.
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tiffer24
Senior Member
afransen
Senior Member
If they can demonstrate intentionality, wouldn't murder be on the table? Or is there some loophole that you can murder people with cars and have it only be considered a driving offense?
Northern Light
Superstar
Uhh............he's already been charged with 4 counts of murder, 1 count attempted murder.
Subject to conviction (which really doesn't seem to be a likely issue here), this is a mandatory life sentence with no chance of parole for 25 years.
Consecutive sentences in respect of parole may be possible; although, the law permitting this, passed under PM Harper is currently the subject of a constitutional challenge.
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While terrorism may be at play; the added charge here would not change the sentence.
gabe
Senior Member
According to every eyewitness reports - the motorist revved his engine went up on the sidewalk sped towards this family. He was also wearing military helmet and had armour on. The police seem to have more than enough evidence that this family was killed intentionally.