LCBO / The Beer Store

[W. K. Lis]

How should the LCBO deal with these robberies?

https://www.thestar.com/news/insigh...watch-theyre-literally-just-walking-away.html

Seems an easy fix would be a security guard in every store, and high resolution imaging of everyone. And how about police response?

“But LCBO theft stings especially deep in Toronto, where some suggest overlapping policies — the LCBO’s “hands-off” instruction to staff never to intervene with thieves while they are in the building, coupled with the Toronto Police Service’s policy to rarely, if ever, dispatch officers to a low-priority theft scene after the thieves have left — has opened a pathway to friction-free larceny.”

Police response is almost non-existence. Especially with budget cuts, cuts, cuts.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Police response is almost non-existence. Especially with budget cuts, cuts, cuts.

Toronto's police budget has never been higher. It's not a revenue issue, it's an issue of how it's spent. Unfortunately salary increases over inflation rates have absorbed almost all increases in the police budget.

If nearly every cell phone store or jewelry store I see has a security guard, why no ever lcbo?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Wondering how quickly a facial cognition software attached to the cameras in a LCBO could recognize a former shoplifter, underage buyer, alcoholic, or urbantoronto.ca member; and alert security or a passing police car that there is problem that needs further investigation?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Wondering how quickly a facial cognition software attached to the cameras in a LCBO could recognize a former shoplifter, underage buyer, alcoholic, or urbantoronto.ca member; and alert security or a passing police car that there is problem that needs further investigation?

I don’t think the police would respond regardless. We’re at the point now with TPS that if you’re not a gun-toting TCHC gangsta or actively being murdered, no one is coming in anything like a timely manner.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Something is going to have to be done now though, as every thieving scoundrel in Ontario now knows where to go for easy pickings. That's probably why the lcbo hasn't mentioned this theft problem until now, after the Toronto Star outed them.

 

[Towered]

I don’t think the police would respond regardless. We’re at the point now with TPS that if you’re not a gun-toting TCHC gangsta or actively being murdered, no one is coming in anything like a timely manner.

Unfortunately, this is the exact impression I've had for years now. The police budget seems to increase every year, yet they seem to be more invisible than ever. I can't remember the last time I saw a speed trap. I think I even read an article a while back with a policeman admitting that it wasn't something they were investing resources into anymore.

So what are they prioritizing?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Unfortunately, this is the exact impression I've had for years now. The police budget seems to increase every year, yet they seem to be more invisible than ever. I can't remember the last time I saw a speed trap. I think I even read an article a while back with a policeman admitting that it wasn't something they were investing resources into anymore.

So what are they prioritizing?

In 1961, the population of Metropolitan Toronto was 1,824,481. By 2001, we had 2,481,494. By 2016, we're at 2,731,571. The population is increasing, therefore we need more police officers.

 

[Admiral Beez]

In 1961, the population of Metropolitan Toronto was 1,824,481. By 2001, we had 2,481,494. By 2016, we're at 2,731,571. The population is increasing, therefore we need more police officers.

I agree, but we don't need, or more accurately we can't afford more $100k a year officers. We should follow other cities, like Vancouver where they have an entirely different traffic enforcement police that is lower paid. Or NYPD, where they have traffic and petty crime cops at lower salaries. Essentially the TPS union has priced themselves out of contention for additional bodies needed for law enforcement.

And the lcbo are provincial jurisdiction. They should each have an armed OPP guard outside of Toronto property taxes. How does Brinks get to have armed guards for its bank trucks, but the liquor stores are unprotected from similar levels of risk?

 

[W. K. Lis]

If Costco has people checking that the number of goods matching the number shown on the receipts, maybe the LCBO should do the same. Or have Costco start selling booze in Ontario.

 

[lenaitch]

I agree, but we don't need, or more accurately we can't afford more $100k a year officers. We should follow other cities, like Vancouver where they have an entirely different traffic enforcement police that is lower paid. Or NYPD, where they have traffic and petty crime cops at lower salaries. Essentially the TPS union has priced themselves out of contention for additional bodies needed for law enforcement.

And the lcbo are provincial jurisdiction. They should each have an armed OPP guard outside of Toronto property taxes. How does Brinks get to have armed guards for its bank trucks, but the liquor stores are unprotected from similar levels of risk?

Totally agree with the problem of contract increases well beyond inflation. The government just passed legislation regarding firefighter arbitration which requires the arbitrator to take into account the employer's ability to pay. I can foresee something similar for police labour negotiations but he will have to first reconcile such a move with his stated support of police officers since he knows it will cost him.

I have no idea how the 'traffic warden' concept works in Vancouver or NYC, but one problem is the more you segregate authorities and responsibilities, you lose flexibility. For example, a traffic stop can reveal an impaired driver, or liquor or drugs. Someone empowered under the Highway Traffic Act/municipal bylaws would not be empowered to deal with them any more than an ordinary citizen. Also, lower paid 'traffic police' (or whatever they are called) might work until somebody gets killed or injured (the 'routine stop' can be one of the more dangerous police/public interaction), then they will argue for parity. It happened in New Brunswick in the 70s/80s with the New Brunswick Highway Patrol - all was fine until one of their members was murdered on the side of the road.

Having police stand guard over private property, regardless of the fact that it is a Crown Corp., makes little sense. They are a major profit centre - they can fund security out of their bottom line. As far as I know they pay property taxes but stand to be corrected.

Generally, police services are provided within a jurisdiction regardless of who-owns-what. Having an OPP member camped out in a LCBO store in downtown Toronto makes about as much sense as waiting for a Mountie to show up to deal with a drunk at the Service Canada office in Peterborough.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Having police stand guard over private property, regardless of the fact that it is a Crown Corp., makes little sense. They are a major profit centre - they can fund security out of their bottom line. As far as I know they pay property taxes but stand to be corrected.

What I want is armed guards, same as Brinks trucks. OPP approved guards would do, agreed they should be paid for out of LCBO profits.

Armed guards make the difference...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...rity-guard-at-toronto-jewelry-store-1.2894247
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...r-shot-dead-by-guard-edmonton-police-say.html

Unarmed guards get killed...
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2018/10/30/fatal-shooting-york-university-update/

What I don’t want is some desperate young adult, often recent immigrant, dumped into a $14/hr job equipped with nothing more than a shirt emblazoned with “security” and a Walkie-Talkie, and no means to deter nor prevent liquor thefts. Our rental “security” guy is going to get himself killed.

 

[gabe]

I can see the news headlines already " Unarmed black man shot dead by LCBO security" You could easily knock an armed guard out with a glass bottle to the head when he isn't looking.

I have been in liquor stores all over America, and i have never seen a store with armed guards. I have seen liquor stores that keep premium liquors with the cashier, who sits behind plexi glass both, like a TTC ticket both.

 

[lenaitch]

I have been in liquor stores all over America, and i have never seen a store with armed guards. I have seen liquor stores that keep premium liquors with the cashier, who sits behind plexi glass both, like a TTC ticket both.

There's a good chance that all/some of the staff are carrying concealed, or there is a shotgun behind the counter. Heck, I was in a museum in Springfield IL and saw armed staff.

The issue of high-value product readily available on the shelf may be an issue but from The Star accounts I'm not sure they are the target. It's not uncommon to see $100 single malt whisky on the shelf. I remember the days of order slips and counter service. Perhaps not going back to those Victorian days but something along those lines might be a solution in some stores. I'm not convinced this is a small-town or rural problem.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I can see the news headlines already " Unarmed black man shot dead by LCBO security"

Has that happened with robbery attempts of armoured cars or jewelry stores where armed guards countered the robbers?

You could easily knock an armed guard out with a glass bottle to the head when he isn't looking.

Where's the guard looking if not at the same thieves all the staff and customers are staring at?

 

[gabe]

Has that happened with robbery attempts of armoured cars or jewelry stores where armed guards countered the robbers? Where's the guard looking if not at the same thieves all the staff and customers are staring at?

Robbery and shoplifting are not the same thing. That's why they have different consequences in the court of law.

Go to an LCBO on a busy day like yesterday, they would need more than one guard to bust shoplifters. Not sure what a gun is going to do? Are they going to fire a gun in a busy store? potentially injuring or killing people?

Look how many mass shootings the US has seen where armed guards are present and failed to stop the shooter.