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Lack of meaningful Passenger Rail service outside the Quebec-Windsor Corridor

You might want to read up and absorb the long discussion about Moose Rail, which proposed exactly that, and failed to gain support.

One has to consider exactly where Ottawans want to get to, and not assume that everyone is headed downtown.

- Paul

Moose was a failure from the start because it was a private company. After looking more into it, it is more corporate welfare at best.

You might want to read Sections 91 and 92 of the Constitution Act before you propose getting an appointed federal government entity involved in the use of land they do not own.
Oh,I know just how hard it would be, and that is why I leave it in my fantasy world.I feel that before the fantasy can happen, another fantasy of the capital area needs to become its own province/territory. Mind you, with the need for a federal license to cover both sides, a federal crown corporation could be set up to run a commuter rail system. It just gets very messy.
 
I have a long list of things that I would like to see that are 'possible'. They are things that have existed and could exist again if the money were ever available. These are not fantasy.

Then there is the long list of things that I'd like to see, but it will take more than just lots of money to do. I consider all of those a fantasy. A GO/EXO style of commuter rail in Ottawa is fantasy due to the nature of where potential commuters would be coming from.
 
As many of you may know, I will be meeting with my MP this week to discuss bringing more meaningful Via rail service outside of the Corridor. My requests would be for all Via rail services to operate on at least a daily service and to restore the cuts of the 1990s to places that still have rails;specifically the southern CP route and between Calgary and Edmonton.

Since he is a LPC, I will use a few simple tactics.
1) I will use this as a way they can save face with the carbon tax by using it as a way to give people a lower carbon option.
2) By opening the C-E route, they can have photo ops in places they are not represented to show they do not just care about where they were elected in.
3) I will challenge him to get to and from Ottawa and his home riding to understand how useless Via has become outside of the Corridor. I would then ask him to have a meeting after he does that to discuss this further.

What are your thoughts? Am I using reasonable points as a way to highlight the lack of service and giving ways to expand the service?For the how, that would be up to the federal government and Via to figure out. I am certain if asked, Via officials could come up with solutions to this reality.
 
Your local member and VIA will come up with the solutions that Katie Telford and rest of the gang in the PMO tell them to come up with. With the current government's plan to cut $500Mn this year and $15.4Bn in the next five, I wouldn't pack any bags yet.

Danielle Smith would probably howl about federal interference in sovereign provincial commuting and vow to start her own railway with the money she saves from the new APP.
 
As many of you may know, I will be meeting with my MP this week to discuss bringing more meaningful Via rail service outside of the Corridor. My requests would be for all Via rail services to operate on at least a daily service and to restore the cuts of the 1990s to places that still have rails;specifically the southern CP route and between Calgary and Edmonton.

Since he is a LPC, I will use a few simple tactics.
1) I will use this as a way they can save face with the carbon tax by using it as a way to give people a lower carbon option.
2) By opening the C-E route, they can have photo ops in places they are not represented to show they do not just care about where they were elected in.
3) I will challenge him to get to and from Ottawa and his home riding to understand how useless Via has become outside of the Corridor. I would then ask him to have a meeting after he does that to discuss this further.

What are your thoughts? Am I using reasonable points as a way to highlight the lack of service and giving ways to expand the service?For the how, that would be up to the federal government and Via to figure out. I am certain if asked, Via officials could come up with solutions to this reality.

Two questions that you might offer the MP an answer to

- does anybody (of voting age) in the locations where you are proposing to return passenger service see this as a votable issue - ie while they may like the idea in theory, how will it change their vote towards the party that pursues this?

- how much money will this take, and how is it a better use of federal spending to advance the interests of those particular locations or regions than how money is being spent today (ie what would you stop spending on in those ridings to advance this?)

Three, three questions -
- what specific impacts do you see will be absorbed by the affected railways in those specific locations, and what would you say or offer to the railways to mitigate those impacts

Four, er, four questions -
- where would you locate the necessary maintenance and support bases that VIA would need and what benefit would these deliver to those locations

And if the meeting lasts this long...five....
- what special interest and key poll-swaying interest groups have you spoken to and what justification/evidence do you have that these groups will endorse and support the proposal to their constituents, ie will this help convince them that the LPC is advancing the needs of those groups ?

I will stop there, as your MP's attention may be straying if your answers so far aren't compelling

- Paul
 
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Two questions that you might offer the MP an answer to

- does anybody (of voting age) in the locations where you are proposing to return passenger service see this as a votable issue - ie while they may like the idea in theory, how will it change their vote towards the party that pursues this?

That is a very good question. My thinking is if they vote like me, one item isn't going to push them one way or the other. It is a combination.

- how much money will this take, and how is it a better use of federal spending to advance the interests of those particular locations or regions than how money is being spent today (ie what would you stop spending on in those ridings to advance this?)

I would much rather they find new sources of funding, but phrasing that in any shape or form would be a death blow.

Three, three questions -

- what specific impacts do you see will be absorbed by the affected railways in those specific locations, and what would you say or offer to the railways to mitigate those impacts

The impact is that they would need to fit in another train per day each way. Mitigating that? Likely the only thing is money for longer sidings or double track. So, it could be seen as a way to move goods faster.

Four, er, four questions -

- where would you locate the necessary maintenance and support bases that VIA would need and what benefit would these deliver to those locations

That is a reasonably easy answer. Toronto, Winnipeg and Vancouver for both the CN and CP Canadian routes. Edmonton or Calgary for the service between them.(new jobs in those areas could sway some voters) And for the east, Montreal and Halifax.

And if the meeting lasts this long...five....

- what special interest and key poll-swaying interest groups have you spoken to and what justification/evidence do you have that these groups will endorse and support the proposal to their constituents, will this convince them that the LPC is advancing the needs of those groups ?

This one is my Achilles heel. I do talk to people, but I am 'just a voter'.

I will stop there, as your MP's attention may be straying if your answers so far aren't compelling


- Paul

I thank you for these questions. You have shown me a side I did not think of. You have given me much to think of.
 
Your local member and VIA will come up with the solutions that Katie Telford and rest of the gang in the PMO tell them to come up with. With the current government's plan to cut $500Mn this year and $15.4Bn in the next five, I wouldn't pack any bags yet.

Danielle Smith would probably howl about federal interference in sovereign provincial commuting and vow to start her own railway with the money she saves from the new APP.
I know you are being negative, but that is part of the realistic Canada we live in.
 
That is a very good question. My thinking is if they vote like me, one item isn't going to push them one way or the other. It is a combination.

At the very least, you ought to be able to explain how it fits into initiatives that Ottawa and the Provinces have agreed on.

I would much rather they find new sources of funding, but phrasing that in any shape or form would be a death blow
This is a bigger issue that you can’t sidestep. MP’s have to fight very hard to get even small amounts of money directed to their riding. They won’t be impressed by a suggestion that hey, you must be able to find some money in a drawer somewhere. I would research what infrastructure money is being offered in the various programs - there are enough of those - and argue that your ideas are legitimately within scope for these so the funding may be achievable.
.The impact is that they would need to fit in another train per day each way. Mitigating that? Likely the only thing is money for longer sidings or double track. So, it could be seen as a way to move goods faster.

Longer sidings and double track is serious coin, and if the railways needed it they would already have bought it. Even if it is gifted to them, they will not maintain double track they don’t need - that eats at revenue.
You may not appreciate just what it means to add a passenger train to a single track line. It’s like a game of musical chairs when the music stops - launch just one fast train out of Edmonton, and every train on the line needs a siding to duck into at virtually the same time - a two or three hour trip time is pretty close to a single event..
Alao, some of the lines where we remember passenger have been downgraded, if they are still there at all. Point is, you need to show you appreciate just how costly this will be, and have a reason why that will deliver a. Commensurate value to the country.

That is a reasonably easy answer. Toronto, Winnipeg and Vancouver for both the CN and CP Canadian routes. Edmonton or Calgary for the service between them.(new jobs in those areas could sway some voters) And for the east, Montreal and Halifax.

You might get traction on the Maritimes.
Good luck explaining how the Alberta and Saskatchewan premiers can be soothed by a passenger train when their constituents are fighting to retain a petro based economy or replace it with better.
As for the Canadian daily on any route - that would require a massive equipment investment. For a train that only carries tourists. There is no hope of transforming long distance trains (that carry fewer people than a single airbus) into a valued component of long distance travel when even a sold-out daily train running Vancouver to Toronto (with all passengers buying a fare for the whole way) takes only one slot at YYZ and YVR - with no benefit to intermediate stations.
The risk of making this argument is that you will sound like you are making a case out of nostalgia and not presenting a.value proposition for the future. The last thing MP’s need to hear is a plea to bring back the Cannonball - it makes us all look like romantics and not people with serious ideas. Long distance trains don't so,ve anybody's problem.
I would stick with corridors where there may be potential for significant market share vs air and auto.
This one is my Achilles heel. I do talk to people, but I am 'just a voter'.
Well, you stull have time to talk to someone :) There is strength in numbers.

Good luck, it’s a big ask.

- Paul
 
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At the very least, you ought to be able to explain how it fits into initiatives that Ottawa and the Provinces have agreed on.

That is where the carbon footprint comes in. We are not going to get to net zero with heat pumps and electric cars anymore than we will get there just by reversing the 1990s cuts to Via. Instead, it is a multifaceted approach that will be needed.

This is a bigger issue that you can’t sidestep. MP’s fight very hard to get money directed to their riding. They won’t be impressed by a suggestion that hey, you must be able to find some money in a drawer somewhere. I would research what infrastructure money is being offered in the various programs - there are enough of those - and argue that your ideas are legitimately within scope for these.

"Tax the rich" would be my gut answer, however, I know that is not an answer they want to hear. The reality is,I do not know all the streams that the government can get money from and if there are others that would sit well with the party and the voters.

Longer sidings and double track is serious coin, and if the railways needed it they would already have bought it. They will not maintain double track they don’t need - that eats at revenue.
Alao, some of the lines where we remember passenger have been downgraded, if they are still there at all. Point is, you need to show you appreciate just how costly this will be, and have a reason why that will deliver a. Commensurate value to the country.

I agree, and that is why I am suggesting one a day each way for most lines. For those that are already running, there may not be any additional infrastructure needs to run them. I want to be careful not to have him think I have all the answers. I know I do not.

You might get traction on the Maritimes.
Good luck explaining how the Alberta and Saskatchewan premiers can be soothed by a passenger train when their constituents are fighting to retain a petro based economy or replace it with better.

For places like AB, they could build anything and no matter what it won't matter, but it may matter for a few people. That may be enough to get a seat or so.

As for the Canadian daily on any route - that would require a massive equipment investment. For a train that only carries tourists. There is no hope of transforming long distance trains (that carry fewer people than a single airbus) into a valued component of long distance travel.
The risk of making this argument is that you will sound like you are making a case out of nostalgia and not presenting a.value proposition for the future. The last thing MP’s need to hear is a plea to bring back the Cannonball - it makes us all look like romantics and not people with serious ideas.

There is a plan of replacing the long distance fleet. If they planned on replacing just the existing units, then it may be possible that it it expanded to get enough for expanding the routes. They could even add on to the Charger order for the Corridor for something like the C-E.
 
That is where the carbon footprint comes in. We are not going to get to net zero with heat pumps and electric cars anymore than we will get there just by reversing the 1990s cuts to Via. Instead, it is a multifaceted approach that will be needed.

OK, but let's not gild the lilly. One train a day will only save a minuscule amount of carbon compared to auto or air. That's why we need to focus on corridors where we can fill many trains a day and save much more carbon for the same investment.

There is a plan of replacing the long distance fleet. If they planned on replacing just the existing units, then it may be possible that it it expanded to get enough for expanding the routes. They could even add on to the Charger order for the Corridor for something like the C-E.

Again, how many long distance trains will it take to make a material impact on carbon or airport congestion?

Let's say hypothetically that Ottawa is willing to invest to reduce as few as five daily flights between YVR and YYZ. That's five trainloads per day. It's still far cheaper to buy five larger aircraft (replacing ten smaller planes) than a fleet of trains big enough to haul that many people....let alone operate that many trains. Now try to reduce a further five flights daily from YYZ to Calgary/Edmonton. That's another five trainloads, and another five trains a day. It ain't going to happen, and it will be a long time before those airports can't handle thevtraffic.

It's just too big an investment, and a marketing fantasy, to see long distance trains as carbon fighters. The bigger risk is that Ottawa asks why we run the trains (and tolerate their carbon contribution) at all.

- Paul
 
OK, but let's not gild the lilly. One train a day will only save a minuscule amount of carbon compared to auto or air. That's why we need to focus on corridors where we can fill many trains a day and save much more carbon for the same investment.

I agree. That is why I am not going all out for my fantasies,but instead going for things that will help people have a choice. This means that as people make the choice, they may see the need for more focused corridors.

Again, how many long distance trains will it take to make a material impact on carbon or airport congestion?

Let's say hypothetically that Ottawa is willing to invest to reduce as few as five daily flights between YVR and YYZ. That's five trainloads per day. It's still far cheaper to buy five larger aircraft (replacing ten smaller planes) than a fleet of trains big enough to haul that many people....let alone operate that many trains. Now try to reduce a further five flights daily from YYZ to Calgary/Edmonton. That's another five trainloads, and another five trains a day. It ain't going to happen, and it will be a long time before those airports can't handle thevtraffic.

It's just too big an investment, and a marketing fantasy, to see long distance trains as carbon fighters. The bigger risk is that Ottawa asks why we run the trains (and tolerate their carbon contribution) at all.

- Paul
If the question of Toronto -t Calgary flights is brought up,will point out that those flights are not the goal. The goal would be be "city pairs" So, from Calgary, flights between it and places like Edmonton, Saskatoon, Regina, and Winnipeg. If anything,it is the connections between those 5 cities that beyond a daily service could be added and may be successful in reducing the need for planes.
 

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If I may volunteer seven questions for which you might want to make sure that you have found compelling answers before you are presenting your solutions to anyone:

1) What is the problem I identified?
2) Why do I believe that the problem needs to be addressed?
3) What solution do I see for the problem?
4) Why do I believe that my solution addresses the identified problem better than the Status Quo and/or a solution which someone else has proposed?
5) How much do I estimate my solution might cost and who do I believe should pay for it from what funding sources?
6) Why do I believe that my solution represents good money-for-value from a public viewpoint?
7) Why do I believe that my solution represents good money-for-value for whoever I hope will pay for it?
 
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If I may volunteer seven questions for which you might want to make sure that you have found compelling answers before you are presenting your solutions to anyone:

1) What is the problem I identified?
The problem is, lack of lower carbon options for transportation outside of the QC-W Corridor.
2) Why do I believe that the problem needs to be addressed?
The LPC has beep pushing for Canadians to lower their carbon footprint.
3) What solution do I see for the problem?
1) Daily rail service on existing routes.
2) restoration of routes that were cut in the 1990s that have existing tracks that can be utilized.
4) Why do I believe that my solution addresses the identified problem better than the Status Quo and/or a solution which someone else has proposed?
Winter is a real problem that can cut off the different parts of the country. Trains are usually not as badly affected by it. It happens, but it is not as common as road closures due to weather/accidents related to weather.
5) How much do I estimate my solution might cost and who do I believe should pay for it from what funding sources?
This is where I do not know.I know it won't be cheap or simple to find the money, but this can go a lot further than subsidizing battery plants to lower Canadian's carbon footprints. My guess of costs would be double of Via's current budget. If done right, we might see Via breakeven on some routes.
6) Why do I believe that my solution represents good money-for-value from a public viewpoint?
It does not force anyone to give up things. They can do it on their own terms, and when that is done,it becomes more accepted.
7) Why do I believe that my solution represents good money-for-value for whoever I hope will pay for it?
It is one of the only ways to reduce our dependency on cars. Trains can be switched to fully electric easier than cars can.
 
The problem is, lack of lower carbon options for transportation outside of the QC-W Corridor.

The LPC has beep pushing for Canadians to lower their carbon footprint.

[…]

This is where I do not know.I know it won't be cheap or simple to find the money, but this can go a lot further than subsidizing battery plants to lower Canadian's carbon footprints. My guess of costs would be double of Via's current budget. If done right, we might see Via breakeven on some routes.

[…]
It is one of the only ways to reduce our dependency on cars. Trains can be switched to fully electric easier than cars can.
The problem about centering your argument about the need to decarbonize our transportation industry is that if people start to actually get serious about it, they might realize that hauling heavy diesel trains for very light passenger loads (where you might have to move 10 tonnes and more of empty weight for each passenger) is not just a very inefficient way of rail transport, but also of transport in general:
IMG_3715.jpeg

Source: re-post from VIA Rail thread
 
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The problem about centering your argument about the need to decarbonize our transportation industry is that if people start to actually get serious about it, they might realize that hauling heavy diesel trains for very light passenger loads (where you might have to move 10 tonnes and more of empty weight for each passengers) is not just a very inefficient way of rail transport, but also of transport in general:
View attachment 524771
Source: re-post from VIA Rail thread
Notice how all routes are not the same. If what you said was true, they should be.

I am not going to waste my MP's time, but I fully expect it to be brushed off. At least I will have tried.
 

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