King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[TheTigerMaster]

Though I would also like to see King Street rebuilt, the original plan was to do this in 2023 as the streetcar tracks (top layer) need to be replaced. Because of other work (e.g. new tracks on Adelaide) I think the tracks are not now scheduled until 2024.. As part of the idea on King is to have proper (permanent) in-road patios I think bike lanes are really not feasible and Adelaide & Richmond are very close by. There really is a limit to what can be squeezed into a very limited ROW.

That schedule came out before the Ontario Line timeframe was finalized. With Queen Street being closed from 2023 to 2027, I don't see it realistic that King Street get it's tracks replaced until 2028.

2028 isn't that far away, so I hope the design process starts soon. I'm eager to see what a redesigned King could look like. This is an opportunity to build something truly great. And I'm sure a lot of lessons from the Yonge redesign will be applied here.

 

[afransen]

Is there an actual official permanent design for King St?

Honestly, it should just be made auto-low/pedestrianized with pavers. Cars and delivery vehicles can access at low speed.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Honestly, I think Toronto should just be bold and install high-quality separated bike lanes across the entirety of the streetcar network, even if it's at the cost of removing parking and driving lanes.

The streetcar corridors are ideal for cycling. All the streetcar corridors are flat, crosstown routes with a multitude of small and major destinations. This are ideal conditions for cycling.

We have a massive GreenP network Downtown. Dedicating this much street space to parking makes no sense.

In many places, this means traffic will be reduced to a single lane. Some people will be fatalistic about the traffic impacts, but I don't think it will be bad. Realistically, most of the streetcar network is already de-facto one-lane operation anyways, due the the multitude of obstacles in shoulder lanes (constrction, Ubers, illegal parking, etc...). And as we've seen over and over again, traffic demand tends to "evaporate" once you remove traffic lanes.

This might lead to more reliable streetcar operations as well, since a single lane of traffic leaves cars with no opportunity to "squeeze" in front of streetcars. It also means that traffic will no longer be held up by cars trying to park.

Like the King Street Priority Corridor, this could also be rolled out on a trial basis. Just lay down some flexiposts, and see what happens over a year or two. We can always revert to the status-quo in the unlikely scenario that the impacts are awful.

This makes our streets significantly safer as well, since a single lane inherently calms traffic.

Realistically, after some whining, I think drivers would quickly get used to the new norm of parking at GreenP lots. Fewer drivers might come Downtown, but that's fine.

The network effects would be huge. This is the kind of thing that could double Toronto's cycling network utilization overnight. Toronto's cycling network would rank amongst the best in the world.

With the size of Downtown Toronto literally doubling, we'll inevitably have to prioritize streetcars and cycling movements over all else. Streetcars and cycling are the only way we'll be able to move people across Downtown effectively. They are essentially the circulatory system of Downtown.

This all is really easy to do. The only thing stopping us is fear of the car lobby.

Not as simple as all that; but for the record, bike lanes are not coming to King ST.

Do remember, they are coming to Wellington, in addition to already being on Richmond, Adelaide, Shuter, Gerrard, Wellesley, Harbord and Bloor. As well as Harbour and Queen's Quay/MGT at the south end.

While currently, there are no bike lanes contemplated for Front, this will be looked at before King would.

North-south, based on my discussions, Church is being looked at seriously north of Carlton. Spadina likely won't be considered until it comes up for reconstruction, but its on the radar, and when the time is right, bike lanes will return to Jarvis.

Nothing ever is.

I just feel like as a general principal, bike lanes along our streetcar corridors needs to be a guiding design priority as RapidTO is implemented. It feels like bike lanes are treated as a "nice to have", on any corridor where streetcars are present.

St Clair West is a good example of this. That whole street has GreenP lots in walking distance (as well as a ton of parking on residential streets). They're almost always empty. St Clair could become among the greatest cycling corridors in the city if we got rid of its street parking.

The same could also be said about Spadina (which you also mentioned).

One of the most persistent complaints I hear from Toronto cyclists is how unsafe it is to cycle along streetcar corridors. Yet it's something they have to do, because virtually everything worth visiting in Toronto is on a streetcar corridor. This is something we need to address if this city is to be truly safe for cycling.

And just broadly speaking, the amount of space we dedicate to street parking in an urban core of hundreds of thousands is ridiculous. Anything would be better than parking.

 

[nfitz]

2028 isn't that far away, so I hope the design process starts soon.

One would hope, sigh. We've been discussing this already for 15 years - so what's another 6 (or more)!

 

[Northern Light]

Nothing ever is.

I just feel like as a general principal, bike lanes along our streetcar corridors needs to be a guiding design priority as RapidTO is implemented. It feels like bike lanes are treated as a "nice to have", on any corridor where streetcars are present.

St Clair West is a good example of this. That whole street has GreenP lots in walking distance (as well as a ton of parking on residential streets). They're almost always empty. St Clair could become among the greatest cycling corridors in the city if we got rid of its street parking.

I concur, the design choice for parking on St. Clair was an unfortunate mistake.

The parking should be removed in favour of cycle tracks wherever space permits.

The same could also be said about Spadina (which you also mentioned).

One of the most persistent complaints I hear from Toronto cyclists is how unsafe it is to cycle along streetcar corridors. Yet it's something they have to do, because virtually everything worth visiting in Toronto is on a streetcar corridor. This is something we need to address if this city is to be truly safe for cycling.

Spadina and St. Clair (as with the central section of College/Carlton and Bathurst south of Queen are all extra wide roads with room for cycle tracks and/or exclusive streetcar ROW). I'm happy to support either/both in those situations.

On narrower ROWs, I don't support it as I don't want cars on the streetcar tracks, and removing all car lanes is generally a non-starter.

And just broadly speaking, the amount of space we dedicate to street parking in an urban core of hundreds of thousands is ridiculous. Anything would be better than parking.

Agreed.

And, psst, you'll be very happy when you see what's coming down the pipe in this regard.........

Edit to add: For a teaser, look here: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/parking-catch-all.32665/post-1801523

Then scroll down that thread for some material action as well.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Spadina and St. Clair (as with the central section of College/Carlton and Bathurst south of Queen are all extra wide roads with room for cycle tracks and/or exclusive streetcar ROW). I'm happy to support either/both in those situations.

Yes, this would be nice.

College from University to Bathurst (approximately) could support this configuration.

Bathurst from Queen to the Lakeshore as well.

(Green-track on College would go nicely with the new U of T landscaping and whatever happens with University/Queen's Park redesign (also this))

Agreed.

And, psst, you'll be very happy when you see what's coming down the pipe in this regard.........

Edit to add: For a teaser, look here: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/parking-catch-all.32665/post-1801523

Then scroll down that thread for some material action as well.

That's fantastic. The attachments in the linked report are encouraging

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Spadina and St. Clair (as with the central section of College/Carlton and Bathurst south of Queen are all extra wide roads with room for cycle tracks and/or exclusive streetcar ROW). I'm happy to support either/both in those situations.

On narrower ROWs, I don't support it as I don't want cars on the streetcar tracks, and removing all car lanes is generally a non-starter.

I agree with you. Congestion would make it unworkable on narrower ROWs. And a total car ban is a non-starter.

But it could work with a congestion charge. The City could dynamically set congestion charges at levels that allow streetcars to travel through the Downtown unimpeded. Under these rules, streets would be for streetcars, and driving through Downtown is a privilege you pay for.

This is politically unviable today. But I believe it could be politically viable once the next Liberal or NDP government are inevitably elected.

Under these rules, we could then restrict all the streetcar corridors to one lane, without having to worry too much about cars obstructing operations (outside of things like crashes). That extra road space could then be dedicated to cycling, CafeTO, etc...

The result would be a city largely free of car congestion, and where cyclists and streetcars can rapidly move across the Downtown area. With congestion charges, cars would take up less space in our urban landscape, and there’s a lot we could do with that.

This is a very long-term vision kind of thing. This won't happen under Ford's reign (I'm not totally delusional).

There needs to be political consensus that streetcars and bikes (and other active transport) are the only way we can effectively circulate people around Downtown Toronto.

I'm optimistic given our recent wins. With Downtown growing so rapidly, support for these measures will only increase. Plus, GO RER and other regional expansion only makes the political case easier for this.

 

[evandyk]

The streetcar priority portion of King St is actually pretty comfy to bike along. I do it often, even with the toddler on the back, even without bike lanes. It gets much dicier outside the priority zone because you have cars racing in the right lane trying to get ahead of the streetcars.

 

[just east of the creek]

The streetcar priority portion of King St is actually pretty comfy to bike along. I do it often, even with the toddler on the back, even without bike lanes. It gets much dicier outside the priority zone because you have cars racing in the right lane trying to get ahead of the streetcars.

As a shorter term fix, how about making King one way through the 'congestion zone' (set your boundaries)? And possibly Queen as well. Richmond and Adelaide already are. Even without moving tracks there should be plenty of room for pedestrians, and the bike crowd to one side of the physically separated streetcar tracks, and then cars and/or commercial services on the other. Ditch any on street parking for anything outside of a licensed commercial activity (if there is room).

 

[nfitz]

As a shorter term fix, how about making King one way through the 'congestion zone' (set your boundaries)?

I'm not sure what's gained. Wouldn't that increase the congestion in that direction, as it is effectively zero-way currently.

 

[afransen]

Not a bad idea, but also enforcing no through traffic.

 

[evandyk]

No thanks. One way streets are the worst, especially for biking. Richmond and Adelaide are terrible streets, and the there is no good reason to make King and Queen look like them too.

But yes to ditching on street parking on streets like King. Parking is the biggest waste of public space we have ever invented.

 

[just east of the creek]

No thanks. One way streets are the worst, especially for biking. Richmond and Adelaide are terrible streets, and the there is no good reason to make King and Queen look like them too.

But yes to ditching on street parking on streets like King. Parking is the biggest waste of public space we have ever invented.

Can i ask why? I grant you that currently Richmond and Adelaide look pretty substandard. But the vision here is a bit different. Bike lanes would be physically separated from cars by the streetcar tracks, themselves physically separated from cars as well. Excluding intersections, the street sections should be much calmer for cyclist's. The streetcar tracks would confine cars to one side of King with expanded pedestrian and cycling to the other.

 

[Northern Light]

Can i ask why? I grant you that currently Richmond and Adelaide look pretty substandard. But the vision here is a bit different. Bike lanes would be physically separated from cars by the streetcar tracks, themselves physically separated from cars as well. Excluding intersections, the street sections should be much calmer for cyclist's. The streetcar tracks would confine cars to one side of King with expanded pedestrian and cycling to the other.

Historically, certainly in Ontario, one-way streets are associated with moving car traffic more quickly. That is not an inherently bad thing, per se.........

But it tends to make the pedestrian and cycling environments less pleasant.

It also tends to be one-way public transit, which is by nature a hassle.

Typically, one-way streets (major ones} in Ontario tend to do less well from a retail perspective. They are both more difficult to access, even for motorists in that you can only approach from one direction, and this tends to stifle active street life/retail.

Its not inherent to the concept per se. It depends on many details such as physical distance to any paired road, frequency of transit, ease of off-street parking and so on.

But, by and large, whether in Toronto, Hamilton or Brantford, one way streets have been seen as a way to make streets less vital and healthy.

 

[afransen]

I think disallowing through traffic would do a lot to mitigate any concerns about making the street one way.

One ways being about moving traffic more quickly is not necessarily bad for pedestrians. You could easily enforce a low average speed of 30-40 kph with signal timing (assuming through traffic is permitted) which tends to achieve higher average speeds than bidirectional streets with higher speed limits. So a 30 kph max speed one way is quite feasible, without being inconsistent with walkability.