King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[W. K. Lis]

In 1958, Sam Cass (Metro Toronto Traffic Commissioner at the time) requested, along with arguments for, from the province for pedestrian crossings. There weren't any before then.

From link.

Unlike today, where the traffic department seems to be either afraid to ask, and are so pro-automobile they don't want to.

 

[pman]

The City could install cameras to monitor driver compliance, as they do all along the 333 bus lane along Oxford Street in Sydney. Of course, for behaviour to change the cameras would have to be monitored and fines would have to be high.

 

[DSC]

The City could install cameras to monitor driver compliance, as they do all along the 333 bus lane along Oxford Street in Sydney. Of course, for behaviour to change the cameras would have to be monitored and fines would have to be high.

We have Red Light cameras and they seem to work so I see no reason why "you forgot' to turn" cameras would not work along King.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

In 1958, Sam Cass (Metro Toronto Traffic Commissioner at the time) requested, along with arguments for, from the province for pedestrian crossings. There weren't any before then.

From link.

Unlike today, where the traffic department seems to be either afraid to ask, and are so pro-automobile they don't want to.

The traffic department created them automobile gods

 

[pstogios]

I think the biggest thing that would help when permanent, is get rid of the solid green indication (or stop using it outside of the times that taxis are permitted). While signs are an issue, users generally respect traffic signals. Have right turn arrows, the white bars for streetcars, a signal for bicycles, and pedestrian signals, and basically always keep the red indicator on (except when taxis are permitted at night). I would think this would work better, plus you would have a fine for running a red for people who go through.

This is quite possibly the best idea anyone has come up with.

Drivers will notice and respect a red light. They may or may not notice and may or may not respect more signage, gates, or physical barriers, and it isn’t realistic to have cops standing at every corner.

I don’t understand why this would be against the HTA. Red lights to block forward travel, green right turn signals, independent signals (white bars) for streetcars, and independent signals for cyclists. These are all already approved by the HTA.

Last point: walking today along King around Spadina to John showed that compliance by drivers with the pilot rules is way down. Saw many vehicles blatantly ignoring the rules at a rate much higher than the first phase of the Pilot.

 

[44 North]

I think the biggest thing that would help when permanent, is get rid of the solid green indication (or stop using it outside of the times that taxis are permitted). While signs are an issue, users generally respect traffic signals. Have right turn arrows, the white bars for streetcars, a signal for bicycles, and pedestrian signals, and basically always keep the red indicator on (except when taxis are permitted at night). I would think this would work better, plus you would have a fine for running a red for people who go through.

I like the idea. Am being reminded of the Simpsons episode where Mensa members controlled the city and Prof Frink decided to only use red and yellow traffic lights. Do wonder though when taxis are allowed to use the green, so will other drivers and this still doesn't really prevent that. Feel we need something with a bit more permanency at night to show that only streetcars and taxis. But otherwise this sounds really good.

In 1958, Sam Cass (Metro Toronto Traffic Commissioner at the time) requested, along with arguments for, from the province for pedestrian crossings. There weren't any before then.

From link.

Unlike today, where the traffic department seems to be either afraid to ask, and are so pro-automobile they don't want to.

Crazy to think of the city without them. And crazy that other cities in Ontario haven't yet adopted push-button crosswalks with flashing lights.

 

[KevinT]

I don’t understand why this would be against the HTA. Red lights to block forward travel, green right turn signals, independent signals (white bars) for streetcars, and independent signals for cyclists. These are all already approved by the HTA.

The issue is that the green right arrow is interpreted as 'turn without stopping and looking', which is death to pedestrians and cyclists. It would only work if the pedestrians and cyclists got their own phase and saw red/halt otherwise when the cars had their arrow. Which is a shame because other than that replacing a solid green with the green right arrow is brilliant.

 

[Hieberrr]

Last point: walking today along King around Spadina to John showed that compliance by drivers with the pilot rules is way down. Saw many vehicles blatantly ignoring the rules at a rate much higher than the first phase of the Pilot.

I think it's because the rules are counter intuitive. If we're going to create rules, they need to be easy to understand and intuitive so that the behaviour can be learned quickly and can become second nature to drivers both local and visiting. We have too many convoluted rules and exceptions.

King St would better be served with a street car ROW and bike lanes only. Or just allow through traffic for cars with no turning.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

I think it's because the rules are counter intuitive. If we're going to create rules, they need to be easy to understand and intuitive so that the behaviour can be learned quickly and can become second nature to drivers both local and visiting. We have too many convoluted rules and exceptions.

King St would better be served with a street car ROW and bike lanes only. Or just allow through traffic for cars with no turning.

Not sure how I feel about a streetcar ROW. King Street is too narrow for it.

 

[steveintoronto]

I don’t understand why this would be against the HTA. Red lights to block forward travel, green right turn signals, independent signals (white bars) for streetcars, and independent signals for cyclists. These are all already approved by the HTA.

Indeed, albeit only the horizontal (lateral) white bar is defined in the HTA. There's no way that the Ford Fiasco would allow for the City to have the Act updated. The City blew their chance big-time when the Libs were in at QP. Written and detailed extensively in this string. There's also a special "Pilot" section to the HTA, with extraordinary powers, but I digress, all been posted and discussed at length in this string.

We have Red Light cameras and they seem to work so I see no reason why "you forgot' to turn" cameras would not work along King.

Not in the HTA. Should be. Ford in power. No chance now.

 

[nfitz]

Not sure how I feel about a streetcar ROW. King Street is too narrow for it.

How? Streetcars need less width than cars for the ROW. If streetcars and bikes only, how is it too narrow?

 

[W. K. Lis]

The issue is that the green right arrow is interpreted as 'turn without stopping and looking', which is death to pedestrians and cyclists. It would only work if the pedestrians and cyclists got their own phase and saw red/halt otherwise when the cars had their arrow. Which is a shame because otherwise replacing a solid green with the green right arrow is brilliant.

Use a flashing YELLOW right turn arrow.

 

[rbt]

Use a flashing YELLOW right turn arrow.

Clever. It's unfortunate BC has a different meaning for flashing yellow arrow; it indicates a red is coming soon and they should stop if possible. That said, if that flashing yellow rule is USA wide then BC might want to change their traffic light configuration anyway.

Ontario doesn't have a flashing yellow arrow so it could/should be added but it might take a while.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Clever. It's unfortunate BC has a different meaning for flashing yellow arrow; it indicates a red is coming soon and they should stop if possible. That said, if that flashing yellow rule is USA wide then BC might want to change their traffic light configuration anyway.

Ontario doesn't have a flashing yellow arrow so it could/should be added but it might take a while.

Ontario doesn't a flashing nor a non-flashing RED arrow, officially. Nor a flashing green arrow. Nor transit signal other than the vertical white bar, officially. Ontario is so behind the times.

See link.

 

[pstogios]

The issue is that the green right arrow is interpreted as 'turn without stopping and looking', which is death to pedestrians and cyclists. It would only work if the pedestrians and cyclists got their own phase and saw red/halt otherwise when the cars had their arrow. Which is a shame because other than that replacing a solid green with the green right arrow is brilliant.

But we already have advance green arrows along the ROW. There was a learning curve but pedestrians have largely gotten used to them. When I drove along King and turn right I usually do it without incident.

As for cyclists having their own phase, yes that is a good idea when coupled with separate lights for cyclists, as is fine in many locations in the city. The cyclist phase can be the same as the streetcar phase.

So the phases should be:

1. Streetcar + cyclists (red for cars, white vertical bar for streetcars, green cycle signal, pedestrian countdown on)
2. Cars right (red for cars+green right arrow, white vertical bar for streetcars, RED cycle signal, STOP sign for pedestrians).
3. Red for all.