King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[reaperexpress]

Look how fast those trams go over the turns. Our trams are not allowed to turn that quickly and crawl across any switches, curves or turns.

Sure there's the 10km/h limit through switches, but some streetcar operators have told me that the new Bombardier Flexity streetcars are so wobbly that they don't even get up to 10 around sharp turns for fear of knocking over the passengers. I suspect it has something to do with the wheel arrangement with floating compartments and long overhangs. In contrast, the C/ALRVs had the standard train wheel configuration with rotating bogies under the cars or directly attached to the articulation, which is very stable. Hopefully this issue gets sufficiently well-known that the next order for new streetcars will consider how fast the candidates can comfortably go around corners, rather than just in a straight line.

But anyway, none of these things are going to be addressed in the King Street Pilot, because it is just a pilot. We have discussed about the silly Ontario signal rules in the Traffic Signals thread.

 

[aquateam]

Sure there's the 10km/h limit through switches, but some streetcar operators have told me that the new Bombardier Flexity streetcars are so wobbly that they don't even get up to 10 around sharp turns for fear of knocking over the passengers. I suspect it has something to do with the wheel arrangement with floating compartments and long overhangs. In contrast, the C/ALRVs had the standard train wheel configuration with rotating bogies under the cars or directly attached to the articulation, which is very stable. Hopefully this issue gets sufficiently well-known that the next order for new streetcars will consider how fast the candidates can comfortably go around corners, rather than just in a straight line.

I'm sure this question has been raised and addressed somewhere else in this thread, so I'm sorry for the repeat, but this 10 km/h speed limit (either for turns or for intersections) is mind boggling to me since it's such a significant handicap for the efficiency of the streetcar network and probably a large contributor to why Torontonians generally think of streetcars as slow lumbering throwbacks to the 19th century.

1. Do other cities operate with this restrictive practice, or are we just special?
2. Is there any plan, either funded or unfunded, to address this deficiency, or has it been accepted as a permanent fact of operating a streetcar network?
3. When the city undertakes expensive month/year-long shutdowns and rebuilds of track all the way to the ballast like they are currently doing on Queensway, do they not install switches that are capable of more than 10 km/h operating speeds?

 

[reaperexpress]

I'm sure this question has been raised and addressed somewhere else in this thread, so I'm sorry for the repeat, but this 10 km/h speed limit (either for turns or for intersections) is mind boggling to me since it's such a significant handicap for the efficiency of the streetcar network and probably a large contributor to why Torontonians generally think of streetcars as slow lumbering throwbacks to the 19th century.

We use single-slip switches, which are more prone to derailment (but also cheaper and easier to repair) than the dual-slip switches used on basically every other railway in the world. Plus, there is no electronic confirmation (i.e. a signal) to drivers that the switch is fully set for them, so streetcar operators need to slow down sufficiently to see by eye that the switch is properly set for them. Plus, the streetcars are only detected a few metres before the switch because of the way the current radio transponder system works, which effectively means they need to stop to ensure the switch gets set before they proceed.

1. Do other cities operate with this restrictive practice, or are we just special?

I'm not aware of any other systems that still use a switching system as antiquated as ours, but there may be some other legacy tram systems that do as well.

2. Is there any plan, either funded or unfunded, to address this deficiency, or has it been accepted as a permanent fact of operating a streetcar network?

There is a plan to adopt a new standard for switches which will address all of the issues I described above, but I need to do some research before I say any more than that.

3. When the city undertakes expensive month/year-long shutdowns and rebuilds of track all the way to the ballast like they are currently doing on Queensway, do they not install switches that are capable of more than 10 km/h operating speeds?

Once the TTC adopts a new standard for switches it will install that standard with new trackwork. Until then, it will install the current standard.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Why doesn't the TTC use double switches?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Why doesn't the TTC use double switches?

Not with the 6+ years of budget cuts, cuts, and more cuts demanded by the mayors and financial conservative politicians, we can't.

 

[amnesiajune]

Sure there's the 10km/h limit through switches, but some streetcar operators have told me that the new Bombardier Flexity streetcars are so wobbly that they don't even get up to 10 around sharp turns for fear of knocking over the passengers. I suspect it has something to do with the wheel arrangement with floating compartments and long overhangs. In contrast, the C/ALRVs had the standard train wheel configuration with rotating bogies under the cars or directly attached to the articulation, which is very stable. Hopefully this issue gets sufficiently well-known that the next order for new streetcars will consider how fast the candidates can comfortably go around corners, rather than just in a straight line.

This really isn't an issue though. Streetcars spend hardly any time on sharp corners, and they'll always have to slow down to some degree so that standing passengers don't fall over.. It's not worth spending tens of millions to figure out how to trim 30 seconds off of hour-long streetcar runs.

Why doesn't the TTC use double switches?

Because the TTC's streetcar system is really, really old. The LRT lines are going to use double switches, but updating the streetcar system would be very expensive and disruptive.

 

[aquateam]

Because the TTC's streetcar system is really, really old. The LRT lines are going to use double switches, but updating the streetcar system would be very expensive and disruptive.

What I don't understand is that the TTC is already doing expensive and disruptive rebuilds of the streetcar system, so why aren't they updating the switches in the process? For example, this is the current state of Queensway:

Bathurst/College rebuild from two years ago:

Queen/Spadina from five years ago:

In fact, since 2012 the TTC has been rebuilding almost the entire streetcar network as part of their track renewal program.

 

[Voltz]

They put in double blade switches in the Leslie Barns yards, which according to this video of them are heated and have indicator lights to show how they are set.

So they do have a new design they could be using when tracks are rebuilt, but won't be doing that of course.

 

[crs1026]

Because the TTC's streetcar system is really, really old.

Are you suggesting that it should stay that way? We need modernity throughout.

Every route crosses several turnouts so the time lost is cumulative. And, we don't need to aggravate drivers by proving the "plodding obstruction" aspects to them. We need the speed through major intersections.

- Paul

 

[Steve X]

They put in double blade switches in the Leslie Barns yards, which according to this video of them are heated and have indicator lights to show how they are set.

So they do have a new design they could be using when tracks are rebuilt, but won't be doing that of course.

How about TTC get into modernization and install traffic signals at switch points to indicate how they are set. So they can eliminate the stop and proceed rule.

 

[W. K. Lis]

How about TTC get into modernization and install traffic signals at switch points to indicate how they are set. So they can eliminate the stop and proceed rule.

Not in the budget. (Its the dimes and nickels, actually more than a loonie, that force modernization to the bottom of budget list.)

 

[reaperexpress]

Not in the budget. (Its the dimes and nickels, actually more than a loonie, that force modernization to the bottom of budget list.)

[CITATION NEEDED]

Not in the budget, apart from that $3 million per year line item called "Streetcar Trackswitch & Controllers Rehabilitation & Replacement"...

Please avoid making broad sweeping statements that are completely made up.

 

[reaperexpress]

What I don't understand is that the TTC is already doing expensive and disruptive rebuilds of the streetcar system, so why aren't they updating the switches in the process?

In fact, since 2012 the TTC has been rebuilding almost the entire streetcar network as part of their track renewal program.

They put in double blade switches in the Leslie Barns yards, which according to this video of them are heated and have indicator lights to show how they are set.

So they do have a new design they could be using when tracks are rebuilt, but won't be doing that of course.

This procurement for more of the current old-fashioned switches explains why for the moment track replacement is still using that type, while the Leslie Barns uses the modern standard:

https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Co...ts/PA_-_Supply_of_Rail_Track_Switch_Parts.pdf

TTC has an ongoing requirement for various track switch parts (clamps, bolts, levers, springs, etc.) that are used as inventory stock to support and maintain over 150 streetcar track system switches operating throughout the TTC. These track switch machines are manufactured and supplied by Irwin who holds the proprietary rights to the switch machine design and is the single source supplier (original equipment manufacturer and only source of supply) for all components. Proprietary Irwin parts are required in order to Staff Report for Action on Supply of Rail Track Switch Parts. 2 retain functional reliability, and maintain the structural integrity of the assemblies for safety and accountability purposes. The lifespan of a track switch machine is between 17 and 20 years and the machines are replaced as required when track rehabilitation work is undertaken by TTC. Due to the long life span and number of switches throughout the TTC system, Irwin parts will be required over the long term in some cases. The TTC is currently testing an alternate switch machine in a controlled, light traffic area, to assess the reliability and performance of an alternate track switch machine for operational and maintenance benefit. In addition, the TTC is adopting a new track switch system for Leslie Barns.

The system at Leslie Barns is more generic and can be sourced from multiple suppliers, as opposed to the older, relatively simple but proprietary design currently on the streetcar network. Upon gaining more experience with the prototype switch machine, and those at Leslie Barns, an opportunity exists to consider replacing the current system with a new one. It should be emphasized, however, that changing a track switch system configuration on revenue track will require rigorous longer term operational, maintainability and reliability testing and evaluation. If a new switch machine is proven effective, market competition for this equipment and the associated parts could be introduced.

So contrary to the knee-jerk responses such as "there's not enough funding" or "it's too much work", the actual reason that we don't have current-standard switches on-street yet is that the newer design is undergoing testing and evaluation before spending millions of taxpayer dollars on replacing the current system, which has itself had countless decades of testing and evaluation.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

What I don't understand is that the TTC is already doing expensive and disruptive rebuilds of the streetcar system, so why aren't they updating the switches in the process?

I think it comes down to compatibility with the current fleet. The CLRVS and ALRVS are set up to use a single balded switch the Flexs have been adapted to use it as well. In the new Lessli barn and yard they are able to control the switches from a central point whereas outside of it the switches operate via a radio signal from the underside of the car. If you look overhead of any switch you will see it has a green tag that says NA and an arrow pointing in direction, that indicates to the driver that if they need to go in that particular direction they need to send a signal to the switch. Some are set to tun back to a set position when the car pases it like for example the one at Spadina and Queens Quay is set as default for the 510 to tun south where as if a 509 car needs to go through they need to tell the switch to change. Others in the system that aren't often used are manual (there are also a few powered ones that are broken for several reason some of them due to Toronto Hydro not wiring them up yet and also due to the age of the switch motor in it.), they require the operate to get out and use a switch Iron to move the switch manually some of them will go back into position after the car clears its as with the powered ones (an example of this would be one heading northbound tin Bathurst towards St. Clair for cars heading to St. Clair)but there are many that they need to switch back before the next car arrives, for example at King and Dufferin the witch to go north has to be changed manually after the car show turning goes through the insertion however the southbound switch to the dufferin loop is powered for the use of the 514 car. There are also times when the fault with the switch could be because the streetcar in question was unable to send the signal to the switch motor.

 

[44 North]

If you look overhead of any switch you will see it has a green tag that says NA and an arrow pointing in direction, that indicates to the driver that if they need to go in that particular direction they need to send a signal to the switch.

Ah, wicked thanks for saying what those green tags mean. Was going to one day post about it, but felt like it was obvious to everyone except me.