King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[ksun]

Option 2 is pretty much useless since drivers in this city ignore turn restrictions.

I see people making right/left turns at Yonge/Queen on a daily basis when it is banned 24/7. So option 2 will do little.

I don't think option 4 will happen. Toronto wouldn't dare - how can we have a pedestrian only street in the entire city? It is bloody murder. Option 3 is the best scenario, if anything can happen. Honestly I don't know why this issue is even worth discussing for so long, isn't it obvious that ROW makes far more sense on both King and Queen, at least in the downtown section? What's even the point of those studies? It is one of those things you won't need "experts" or expensive studies and ppts.

Also get rid of some stops for Christ's sake. 400m spacing is more than enough.

The only acceptable solution of course is option 4, but Toronto is not bold or progressive enough to implement it. City hall will either keep the stupid status quo, or make some half-assed, watered down, compromise effort under the guise of a "pilot project" that won't dare to ruffle the feathers of the Almighty Car Driver.

probably a "hybrid approach".

 

[TOareaFan]

I see people making right/left turns at Yonge/Queen on a daily basis when it is banned 24/7. So option 2 will do little.

and we all see lots of cars in the streetcar lanes during the restricted times.......because there is a lack of enforcement. One thing that Tory's parking/stopping blitz did show is that when the rules are enforced, behaviour is changed. There has to be consistent enforcement and siff(er?) penalties for breaking these rules that impede traffic flow (i would include jaywalking as part of that but that is just me). If streetcars really had unfettered, unimpeded and uninterrupted exclusive use of their lanes between 6 and 10 in the morning and 3 and 7 in the evening....many (perhaps not all...but many) of the issues with regards to moving people on King would go away.

We have the tools to do that right now........while we are "dreaming" of what to do in 2017 or 2018 why not enforce the current rules now...a low cost, easy to implement change that would make things better almost immediately.

 

[LNahid2000]

Time to build the DRL. Closing King to cars is a bad idea and I hope that city council rejects this. It is a poor substitute for building the DRL.

It's going to take at least 15 years to build the DRL. What do we do in the meantime?

 

[crs1026]

DRL is the reason I would argue for Option 4......when it happens, one major artery is going to be toast for both streetcar and auto, due to construction obstructions. (Presumably Queen if that's where DRL ends up, but I will leave King on the table so we don't get sidetracked.)

When that road closes, traffic will shift, and the remaining roads will reach saturation (not that we aren't already there).

We might as well condition people to leave their cars outside the downtown altogether. It will happen anyways. How about a little political courage to come out and say that, and use King as the leverage to enable it..... instead of just letting it happen and hear everyone express surprise and dismay about how congested the downtown has become?

- Paul

 

[nhui06]

For those who attended the meeting, any interesting stuff that came out of it? Which option are they leaning towards?

 

[muller877]

My preference would be for a transit ROW, wider sidewalks, and one lane of alternating one-way traffic (at every side street it flips directions, so it's useless for thru traffic, but maintains local access).

This would allow this space to be used for vehicles at certain times, but would also provide a public space for street festivals, etc.

My worry with a total transit ROW is that it will be placed down the middle of the street, which makes it virtually impossible to shut the street down for any kind of parade or street festival.

The ideal setup IMO would be:
(Wider sidewalk)(single traffic lane)(bike lane)(bike lane)(walkway to access transit stops)(transit lane)(transit lane)(wider sidewalk)

King Street is only so big. Keeping transit lanes, a single lane of traffic, and a bi-directional bike lanes are the equivalent of a 4 lane road. It means no improvement to the pedestrian experience nor any ability to improve the culture along the street (festivals, larger patio's, etc).

Why not have a street where pedestrians can enjoy the experience? Why is there an obsession with needing a dedicated bike lane 1 or 2 blocks from another one? We have one on Richmond/Adelaide (that has counter-flow west of Bathurst). And I think there should be one on Wellington (connecting to the Railpath and the Don Valley Gondola). Bikes can walk one block or go slow for one block in a pedestrian mall to get to the final destination. Not a big ask.

 

[PinkLucy]

and we all see lots of cars in the streetcar lanes during the restricted times.......because there is a lack of enforcement. One thing that Tory's parking/stopping blitz did show is that when the rules are enforced, behaviour is changed.

Agreed. A no turn on red was installed at an intersection near me. The police hung out there for about a month, handing out tickets. It was kind of fun to watch. Now, you hardly ever see anyone turning on a red there. Enforcement works.

 

[44 North]

k, wait. Where's the report on options?

 

[nhui06]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/king-street-study-pilot-project-public-meeting-1.3639780

I guess this is a good summary article.

 

[44 North]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/king-street-study-pilot-project-public-meeting-1.3639780

I guess this is a good summary article.

Hm, but where are the "options" being discussed further up? I did a quick Google search and only stumbled on a very brief Pembina paper. I was wondering if there was a tangible report from the City/TTC on options with at least ballparked estimates.

Although I support pedestrian malls and improving streetcar service across downtown, I think the conclusion will always be the same: we need to grade-separate the streetcar lines through the core and build the DRL all the way across Old Toronto. Even if we completely removed auto traffic from King, the 504 would still be bogged down (considering any net gain in speed/reliability/capacity/frequency would be eaten-up by existing demand, latent demand, and ever-growing demand). We have 200k riders traveling E/W within 1,500 metres, blocks are very short, traffic lights are very frequent, and the N/S ped and auto traffic is growing with each passing year. This isn't the outer 416 or 905 where blocks are 1-2km long, roads are wide, and we have unused roadway allowance to expand. And if we turn downtown King into a pedestrian mall, I think "slow orders" would ensue - just as it's done on QQW. Can't exactly run a 100-ton train at the speed limit if we have families and kids ambling in front of it.

Not saying I want us to go cheap on improving the 504's reliability, or improving the pedestrian realm. But I think the answer will always lead to same conclusion (just as it did a almost a century ago): we need to tunnel one or more of the streetcar lines across the core. Anything less is underbuilding. And if we're going to do that, then we may as well divert the funds towards expediting and lengthening the DRL.

 

[MisterF]

I don't think the cost of a King transitway being reallocated to the subway would add anything substantial. Improving a surface route is a drop in the bucket next to the cost of a subway line.

Streetcar transitways in other cities successfully carry a lot more riders than the 504. That street in Melbourne is a good example. I have a feeling that the idea is to build the relief line and have a streetcar exclusive King Street, especially if the RL goes along Queen as recommended. It doesn't have to be either/or. And the King Street improvements can be done a lot faster.

 

[44 North]

I don't think the cost of a King transitway being reallocated to the subway would add anything substantial. Improving a surface route is a drop in the bucket next to the cost of a subway line.

Streetcar transitways in other cities successfully carry a lot more riders than the 504. That street in Melbourne is a good example. I have a feeling that the idea is to build the relief line and have a streetcar exclusive King Street, especially if the RL goes along Queen as recommended. It doesn't have to be either/or. And the King Street improvements can be done a lot faster.

True, and apologies if I sounded like a wet blanket downer. I'm just worried that this could creep up in scope/cost, and divert resources/attention/funds from the DRL. A few cans of paint, widened sidewalks, narrowed/reduced lanes, tree planting sounds good to me. But if this becomes a +$100M endeavour requiring significant construction and new infrastructure...I think that effort should otherwise go to expediting the DRL's construction and bringing it further west. IIRC it was stated at the last DRL meeting that more money = accelerating its construction timeline.

 

[georgevicbell]

I get the appeal of shutting down king completely to cars, but it will not do much, because of the north-south intersections with stoplights. A better idea would be to pedestrianize some of these north south streets for at least a half block, potentially multiple blocks north and south. With the goal of removing lights and intersections.

I am specifically thinking of: John, Yonge, Peter/BJ way, Victoria and church. All of which would benefit from partial or complete pedestrianization. Each one done removes a stoplight from king and allows for faster passage along the route.

Some of these could also be done right away with minimal issues or complaints (John) and might be a way to demonstrate technology (gates, access passes, movable barriers) that Torontonians and the politicians aren't familiar with. Also, businesses will have some better understanding of how it all works before we shut down multiple Kms of a major road lets try some minor ones first!

 

[TransitBart]

I'd like to know what's going on with this too. As in concrete plans. Granted I think it'll be much more difficult than a simple conversion, considering the nature of the street and businesses along it. This is the heart of the financial district - the largest in the nation and 4th(?) largest on the continent. Keesmaat comparing it to smaller CBDs like Melbourne isn't very apt imo.

What I'm hoping is that we're not repeating history and using a King transit mall as just one of many tactics to delay the RL. Thirty-some years ago a bunch of ideas were proposed to improve transit in/out/within downtown. An RL was obviously the ultimate solution, improved GO and surface transit upgrades were second rate. But instead we got virtually nothing in the end (save for the Spadina LRT). All the while building and arguably overbuilding elsewhere.

Not that I don't support an E/W transit and pedestrian mall downtown, but the time for ad hoc alternatives and underbuilding is over. The only way to truly fix the situation is a subway across the south end of Old TO, and to get started ASAP. That, and probably tunneling a short stretch of the either the 504, 505, and 506 through the core.



Going rogue, I like it. Time to take back our streets.

View attachment 78862

Improving transit on King Street - now - even if now means within 24 months - has absolutely nothing to with a DRL and does not negate the need for or imply the possibility of one moment of delay on that project.

For a lot of smart, motivated people (here) we should not confuse rearranging the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic, (King Transit Mall) a trifling, although perhaps helpful in the short run change, with a significant, large network scale addition to the city's rapid transit infrastructure - namely the DRL.

As for what everyone is hoping the city and Metrolinx will do; rest assured they will do what gets the responsible politicians re-elected or what they perceive will keep us from rioting in the street over long, shitty commutes. If we are marching in the streets for a subway, it will get built.

There is a great deal to be concerned about in American politics right now. But Americans have a long tradition of holding politicians to account. Canadians should learn that lesson. I can send an email daily to my Toronto councillor and MPP for a year or two. We all should. It sends a clear message.

 

[andrewpmk]

Improving transit on King Street - now - even if now means within 24 months - has absolutely nothing to with a DRL and does not negate the need for or imply the possibility of one moment of delay on that project.

For a lot of smart, motivated people (here) we should not confuse rearranging the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic, (King Transit Mall) a trifling, although perhaps helpful in the short run change, with a significant, large network scale addition to the city's rapid transit infrastructure - namely the DRL.

As for what everyone is hoping the city and Metrolinx will do; rest assured they will do what gets the responsible politicians re-elected or what they perceive will keep us from rioting in the street over long, shitty commutes. If we are marching in the streets for a subway, it will get built.

There is a great deal to be concerned about in American politics right now. But Americans have a long tradition of holding politicians to account. Canadians should learn that lesson. I can send an email daily to my Toronto councillor and MPP for a year or two. We all should. It sends a clear message.

If the DRL is built this will likely require ripping up portions of one of the downtown streetcar routes (either King or Queen) for many years during construction. That would require detouring a lot of streetcars to the other road for many years. Let's hope that we can actually start building the DRL within the next few years.

I think that the King route is much better than the Queen route because the King streetcar is busier and has more development around it. Almost all new condos east and west of downtown (except for the Regent Park redevelopment) are south of Queen St.

Closing roads to all traffic but streetcars is a band aid solution that is completely pointless. Is Keesmaat's decision to support a DRL on Queen related to this King closure proposal?