kEiThZ
Superstar
Same one....and hey a little rhetoric never hurt anyone except her own poll numbers....
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John Barber: NDP serves only to give victories to Tories
- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
Same one....and hey a little rhetoric never hurt anyone except her own poll numbers....
afransen
Senior Member
I think that her invoking Hitler (while obviously meant for shock value) and the appeasement was a fair rhetorical point, given her premise. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.
What is less interesting is that mentioning Hitler is a faux pas, and that Hitler is used in so many completely unrelated contexts. Both are pretty boring, to me at least.
What is less interesting is that mentioning Hitler is a faux pas, and that Hitler is used in so many completely unrelated contexts. Both are pretty boring, to me at least.
Observer Walt
Senior Member
Just when you think it might be worth your time to read John Barber again ...His article seems to be based on the premise (which he seems to think is undisputed) that all of those NDP voters would vote Liberal, if only there were no NDP. He offers no evidence at all to back that. And even if it were true, the fact is that there are pretty significant differences between the NDP and the Liberals, especially the Liberals of Chretien and Martin in recent years. They were pretty much right-of-centre on many issues, as Layton himself loudly proclaimed. To those who want a left-of-centre alternative, Barber appears to be saying, too bad, you don't deserve it, you should sacrifice your desires to some kind of "greater good", that is, defeating Conservatives. That sounds just a bit arrogant.
I've never been an NDP supporter, but I'm glad they are around, and have a credible voice on the national scene based on the fact that they represent a pretty significant minority of people.
Consider people going to the polls in ridings like Parry Sound - Muskoka, which Barber refers to. In rural areas they possibly drive many miles, and at the poll they vote NDP, knowing very well that their candidate won't win. These voters deserve to be treated respectfully and not have their choice denigrated by the likes of Barber.
If he wants the Liberals to win, let them do it the old-fashioned way, by getting a clear plurality of the votes.
adma
Superstar
And the strange thing is, in PSM, the NDP percentage was virtually stationary in 2006 relative to 2004--only .08% higher.
Then again, Landslide Tony won by .06 of the vote.
And re the "Go Green!" part, it also happened to be one of the top Green finishes in the province (a notch above 8%)
Then again, Landslide Tony won by .06 of the vote.
And re the "Go Green!" part, it also happened to be one of the top Green finishes in the province (a notch above 8%)
King of Kensington
Senior Member
I don't think the Tories will get any seats in the 416, but the Liberals are very likely to be reduced to basically a GTA rump in this election.
afransen
Senior Member
That's probably a bit optimistic, King. They will hold or gain in the Atlantic. I'm not sure how much they'd lose in Quebec, either... they are pretty safe Liberal seats they have at the moment.
Brandon716
Senior Member
I have to admit not knowing the full details of MMP vs preferential balloting, but I've been wary of MMP in the past. Sounds like it takes too much power away from each riding and basically gives it all to a political party. I've heard people explain it away before who support it, but there's still something about MMP that rubs me the wrong way. There's never a win-win perfect anything in politics, and something just doesn't sound right about it.
Maybe preferential balloting is the wave of the future to both give multi-parties power, and also balance the process so that a government that only has 25% of the vote doesn't end up controlling everything in a de facto manner because they just happen to have the plurality.
Maybe preferential balloting is the wave of the future to both give multi-parties power, and also balance the process so that a government that only has 25% of the vote doesn't end up controlling everything in a de facto manner because they just happen to have the plurality.
cuzzin_elias
Banned
You could argue the same for the libs. At least the NDP show up and vote in parliament, and since Dion has been elected Layton has been the de facto opposition.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the NDP seat count higher than the libs
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the NDP seat count higher than the libs
Blovertis
Active Member
Barber seems confused when he demonizes the NDP for splitting the lefty vote but spares the surging Greens. As one of the rare Conservative supporters on this board, I believe the rise of the Greens will only benefit Harper. And rise they will after May puts in a good debate performance.
I could never figure out why Harper was attempting to shut May out of the debate -- it almost seemed like he was unconsciously trying to save Dion from himself.
I could never figure out why Harper was attempting to shut May out of the debate -- it almost seemed like he was unconsciously trying to save Dion from himself.
cuzzin_elias
Banned
I think putting her on the national stage will give her a chance just show the public what a fucking single-issue nutjob she really is. She speaks too freely to be a politician and I can't see voters warming up to her.
While I'm no fan of Harper, I can see his point. May is basically the liberal representative in McKay's riding, but Dion needs all the help he can get so whatever
afransen
Senior Member
You might like Single Transferable Vote, instead, then. It has multi-member ridings, which are elected using voter preferences counted in a rather complicated fashion in order to approximate the overall popular vote in the legislature. It's what BC selected out of its Citizens Assembly, and just ever so slightly failed to accept (majority were in favour).
kEiThZ
Superstar
What I find odd is that these Citizens Assemblies never recommend preferential balloting. There are very few people I know who are die-hard on one party or another during any election. Most people simply have a preference. MMP, STV etc do not reflect a voter's preferences, they simply find a way to reflect the absolute choices of vote's in a given district/region more fairly.
One big problem I had with MMP with the addition of the List members. Over time, these folks would be the ones in cabinet and our local MPPs would become backbenchers. I wold have no problem with this if our MPPs were more independent...kind of in the British tradition. But if they are just going to vote with the party, I don't want to add partisan hacks to the mix.
afransen
Senior Member
Well, depending on how the ridings are structured, STV does respect preferences more than merely replicating popular vote.
In fact, preferential ballot is a special case of STV, where the seats per riding is one.
In fact, preferential ballot is a special case of STV, where the seats per riding is one.
CGM
Active Member
No, but it's his fault for bringing down Paul Martin, knowing that Harper would get his seat... People need to stop wasting their votes on the NDP and Green if they want to kick Harper out
kEiThZ
Superstar
Yeah, but you need muli-member constituencies and that's something that I think many would have a problem with. Having one person, let's you hold that individual accountable. The only problem with any single member constituency is that you end up with some of the same issues wrt proportional representation, etc.
In the end the thing that will make the most difference is if party traditions evolved in Canada to be something like the UK, where not every vote in parliament is sacrosanct. Margaret Thatcher had over 40 of her bils defeated in parliament, sometimes by her own MPs. She didn't kick them and call elections right away. Our interpretation of parliamentary democracy is still quite immature and that's the real problem.