Is Toronto Beautiful?

[Joe R.]

Toronto's public realm truly is unacceptable. Hopefully projects on streets like Bloor and Roncesvalles will inspire other parts of the city to invest in itself and make the city street's more appealing for its residents and visitors. My only concern is that many of these projects seem to be funded by local businesses and without investment from the City the city's streets will remain in their current chaotic state.

I wanted to share these two pictures I took on the NW corner of Yonge/Eglinton. There are a number of rusted poles which serve no purpose at all. They are not tucked away in an industrial corner of the city. Rather they are at one of the busiest and one of the more affluent parts of the city.

Contact the local councillor or send 311 a message.

 

[TrickyRicky]

mrgrieves, the city does cost share on many of these projects so yes the city is contributing money. The point however is that the initiatives are the result of community interest groups acting and the city reacting...sometimes.

I think the interest of most people here is pushing for reform at the city government level both in terms of the regulatory environment and budget priorities. I emphasis this because the physical realm we are speaking about is a reflection of the organizational structure. I think from this perspective we are not appreciating how vast a geographic area and large a government we are dealing with here in Toronto versus some of the comparison cities. Toronto, the city government, as it is structured now is just incapable of delivering the area specific intensity of care and investment you guys desire. If you take a city like London for instance you would see that it is actually a collection of smaller entities with vastly differing standards of built environments. These individual entities are also tiny. Central London is on a completely different scale.

The best we could hope for here in Toronto is more akin to Tokyo which is I think ugly beautiful. By working together as citizens, businesses, and government we could achieve a cultural level of higher standard of care in maintenance and investment in our hodgepodge urban environment. This means that no one, and no one on this forum can abducate their responsibility. It can't be the government's fault or anyone elses fault because it is your responsibility to practice and promote this cultural shift.

So yes, contact your councillor and call 311. That is a good starting point and the very least you should be doing.

 

[Tewder]

... building on your points TrickyRicky:

The city can't do it all, to be sure, but there should be certain 'zones' or spaces that are deemed worthy of better standards of upkeep and higher levels of funding. A good example would be Queen's Park.

Beyond this, it is really about establishing certain standards and then working with BIAs and local groups to achieve them... and establishing standards/guidelines/policies to address the basics like repairs, hydro poles, street furnishings and maintenance (parks, street cleaning etc). This is about regular upkeep in the short term and achieving long term goals in the long term.

In the end, it is not the insurmountable mountain we think it is... but it does require the starting point of a fundamental belief that these things are important and worthy. I'm still not entirely sure we're there yet.

By the way:

a) Noticed there is hoarding up around the University fountain. Yay!

b) Noticed work being done in Clarence Square Park.... anybody know what's going on there?

 

[mrgrieves]

I’ll take your advice and email my councilor about the rusty abandoned poles.

I recognize that Toronto’s geographic area is huge, and the size of its government is also huge. I am by no means educated on how other city governments are structured so really I cannot speak to that, but I recognize this makes it hard to implement city-wide initiatives. That being said the frustration lying with Toronto’s poor public realm/streetscape is that improving it does not involve engaging in a massive public works project. It is more a question of implementing a number of small changes which would have a very large impact (plantings trees, burying wires, putting in more benches, etc). I understand that Toronto has a streetscape manual but I am not so sure that it is being followed. The truly unfortunate part is that Toronto has some of the most vibrant streets in North America, and across the entire city, not only in the downtown core.

I don’t think Torontonians do not take enough pride in the city. Having only been living here for a few years, this is something I do not yet really understand, why there is this lack of pride in the city. But it is reflected in the general ugliness of the streetscape. Very few cities would tolerate 60 year old transforms and power lines over their heads, or trees planted in concrete boxes.

One last point, I believe the continued presence of streetcars are a large contributor to the ugliness of the city since they require overhead wires and other generally ugly pieces of infrastructure, and give streets an unnecessarily chaotic feel to them since they are so disruptive to the flow of traffic. I suppose it is a hard sell to remove overhead power lines or make other improvements when in any case you still have a web of streetcar wires overhead. I would love to know if there are any other non-European cities which also run streetcars in mixed traffic.

 

[Lenser]

One last point, I believe the continued presence of streetcars are a large contributor to the ugliness of the city since they require overhead wires and other generally ugly pieces of infrastructure, and give streets an unnecessarily chaotic feel to them since they are so disruptive to the flow of traffic. I suppose it is a hard sell to remove overhead power lines or make other improvements when in any case you still have a web of streetcar wires overhead. I would love to know if there are any other non-European cities which also run streetcars in mixed traffic.

A couple of things. There's no money for subways - no political will for it, anyway, despite the mayor's oft-heard refrains that the private sector would step up and pay for it, just like that. So for better or worse, streetcars it is. They move more people per given klick along high-density arterials than busses can.

And you know what really disrupts traffic? Umpteen single-occupant cars clogging up our streets. When streetcars have their own right of way they are both fast and efficient - yeah, mixed use of the roads is certainly more problematic but future routes will likely mitigate that problem by having their own right of way. As for the contention that the required infrastructure for streetcars is ugly - well, sure, overhead wires aren't beautiful. But what else is so spectacularly ugly? What about busses belching smog as they crawl along in traffic?

Bottom line, we are going to have to get used to more streetcars in this town, not less. And more scooters and motorcycles. Now that has potential for true ugliness.

 

[adma]

I don’t think Torontonians do not take enough pride in the city.

---

One last point, I believe the continued presence of streetcars are a large contributor to the ugliness of the city since they require overhead wires and other generally ugly pieces of infrastructure, and give streets an unnecessarily chaotic feel to them since they are so disruptive to the flow of traffic.

Yet the reason why they still exist is exactly because of Torontonians "taking enough pride in the city".

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

The poles referred to here are old TTC traction poles for the trolley buses that used to enter Eglinton station. I would say in about a year, 18 months this will all be moot as the entire area will be dug up for the Eglinton LRT.

 

[Tewder]

Streetcars belong in Toronto, they are part of the heritage and a unique part of Toronto's 'space'. Good god, how bland and nebulous do some want the city to be? And yes, I do feel there is a huge difference between streetcars and hydro poles!

 

[allabootmatt]

I’ll take your advice and email my councilor about the rusty abandoned poles.

I recognize that Toronto’s geographic area is huge, and the size of its government is also huge. I am by no means educated on how other city governments are structured so really I cannot speak to that, but I recognize this makes it hard to implement city-wide initiatives. That being said the frustration lying with Toronto’s poor public realm/streetscape is that improving it does not involve engaging in a massive public works project. It is more a question of implementing a number of small changes which would have a very large impact (plantings trees, burying wires, putting in more benches, etc). I understand that Toronto has a streetscape manual but I am not so sure that it is being followed. The truly unfortunate part is that Toronto has some of the most vibrant streets in North America, and across the entire city, not only in the downtown core.

I don’t think Torontonians do not take enough pride in the city. Having only been living here for a few years, this is something I do not yet really understand, why there is this lack of pride in the city. But it is reflected in the general ugliness of the streetscape. Very few cities would tolerate 60 year old transforms and power lines over their heads, or trees planted in concrete boxes.

One last point, I believe the continued presence of streetcars are a large contributor to the ugliness of the city since they require overhead wires and other generally ugly pieces of infrastructure, and give streets an unnecessarily chaotic feel to them since they are so disruptive to the flow of traffic. I suppose it is a hard sell to remove overhead power lines or make other improvements when in any case you still have a web of streetcar wires overhead. I would love to know if there are any other non-European cities which also run streetcars in mixed traffic.

The streetcar issue is a total red herring wrt to wires. Visit virtually any city in Germany, and you'll see how much overhead is actually required to run modern streetcars--very, very little. Basically a span wire perpindicular to the street every 40 metres or so, the two wires for the vehicles, and that's it. So roughly 5% of the visual pollution we put up with in TO. Spadina is a local example of a street with buried Hydro as well as streetcars, and it looks great.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Beyond this, it is really about establishing certain standards and then working with BIAs and local groups to achieve them... and establishing standards/guidelines/policies to address the basics like repairs, hydro poles, street furnishings and maintenance (parks, street cleaning etc).

Good points, Tewder.

To zero in on one of your examples, I wonder how much power BIAs have over the selection of poles and light standards. One of Toronto's problems in public realm design (among many!) is that the poles and light standards that we use even when streetscapes are redesigned are basic, highway-spec stuff that seems to be unformly applied. Take the Bloor street redesign, for example.

I don`t know who has jurisdiction over the poles and light standards used, but if it`s the city - rather than the BIA - there should be some effort made by the City to mandate an aesthetically pleasing type of pole in all street redesigns going forward. Of course, I don`t know who has control over this, because the Yonge street BIA seems to have its own poles, while the Bloor and Roncessvalles redesigns seem to have standard MTO stuff.

 

[taal]

Honestly, having a fresh perspective after walking through many parks / neighborhood in Toronto this summer, I think I overstate how bad things are, there are many areas that are actually decent.
I think the majority of the frustration comes from Yonge street and the core it self. If these two were fixed I would wager many opinions would differ.

In other news, just thinking of a way Toronto would be better, I always thought it would be great if we can transfer some of our great neighborhoods streets closer to the core.

I'm thinking mainly about:
roncesvalles
Bloor West Village
The Beech
...

Transplant all these areas closer to the core ! I can even think of good streets they could take over ... dundas / college east, bay street (the northern section) / Chuch (out side the Curch BIA), Jarvis / Sherborne.

Thoughts ?

 

[Lenser]

How do you propose doing that, exactly? If you moved the Beaches neighbourhood inland, it wouldn't be the Beaches anymore. Bloor West Village is an old-school, low-rise neighbourhood; downtown is about density and increasing verticality. Neighbourhoods are not something you can surgically remove and then drop into another place. They don't work like that. They evolve over time. They're not so much based on science as they are art, culture and society. You can try and treat them like test-tube entities but they are far more than that.

The neighbourhoods you deem in need of "transplants" will come along in their own good time. Natural pressure to change will take care of that.

 

[buildup]

Do people who take no effort in their appearance (leaving aside reasons like illness, poverty, genetics) in other words people you would describe as pigs have a right to complain about architecture from an aesthetic perspective?

Seems hypocrytical to me.

 

[taal]

How do you propose doing that, exactly? If you moved the Beaches neighbourhood inland, it wouldn't be the Beaches anymore. Bloor West Village is an old-school, low-rise neighbourhood; downtown is about density and increasing verticality. Neighbourhoods are not something you can surgically remove and then drop into another place. They don't work like that. They evolve over time. They're not so much based on science as they are art, culture and society. You can try and treat them like test-tube entities but they are far more than that.

The neighbourhoods you deem in need of "transplants" will come along in their own good time. Natural pressure to change will take care of that.

Clearly its not possible

I said ideally this is what I think would make the core greater ! Well consider Church / Sherbourne, some stretches along them are relatively low-rise as well.
More interesting neighborhoods very close to the core ! That's not saying they don't exist, just that more would be even better !

 

[Lenser]

You have to be patient, tail. Cities have their own timetable for change. They are complex, multicellular organisms with competing and conflicting subsets of interests/inclinations/needs... lots of undercurrents driving change and, at the very same time, offering significant resistance to change. Yet in the last twenty years this city has seen huge changes, both in the core and in the neighbourhoods surrounding it. So it's already been quite a couple of momentous decades.

A city can change only so fast for so long before a host of severe new obstacles arise to challenge its continued growth. Sometimes what we want as individuals is at odds with the requirements of the organism itself that hosts us.