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International Herald Tribune on Toronto

^feels xenophobic to me, anyone else? Toronto's openness and tolerance is its core strength. Let's embrace it shall we?



^That's gratuitous, and pretty ballsy for less than a dozen posts.

I was comparing one form of immigration with another. How is that xenophobic? Are you suggesting we are not allowed to criticize government policy or that immigrants are beyond reproach? I know a lot of immigrants themselves who sincerely want to be Canadian who feel frustrated that other people come here and do not respect or feel any attachment to their new 'home'. I am the child of immigrants myself and married to one so learn to read for content before senselessly and casually defaming somebody as 'xenophobic', or anything else for that matter.


I understand that individuals of means come here simply to invest or study and so on but that is not quite the characterization of the situation being described in the article. This is about the establishment of communities of new generations of immigrants that are not migrating to Canada because they desire to be Canadian but are simply here to reap awards (diploma, passport, government benefits, etc.) before splitting home. Sorry, not my concept of what an ideal immigration policy should be promoting, no matter the 'fuzzy feel-good' Multi-culti propaganda.
 
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Somehow the City's population continues to expand rapidly despite your politically incorrect assertions. We know that it isn't the birthrate that is bailing us out, could it all be from inter-migration from other cities and provinces?

Or is it possible that there are actually foreigners (and I'll venture a guess that they don't come from the same country as you did?) who come here and plant roots? Or maybe even open an outstanding restaurant or two?
 
Somehow the City's population continues to expand rapidly despite your politically incorrect assertions. We know that it isn't the birthrate that is bailing us out, could it all be from inter-migration from other cities and provinces?

Or is it possible that there are actually foreigners (and I'll venture a guess that they don't come from the same country as you did?) who come here and plant roots? Or maybe even open an outstanding restaurant or two?

Thanks, tips.

Are you one of those folk who would jump up and shout 'racist!' if one were to criticise Barack Obama?
Or 'anti-Semite!' were one to criticise the Israeli bombing of Gaza?

Come off it. Seriously.

It's true that there are two types of immigrant: those who love their new home and those who see it as a five-star hotel. Pointing this out does not make one a xenophobe....unless the definition of the word has been changed since last I checked.

I've personally met these five-star hotel types studying at Carleton. I call them "the internationals". They're somewhat homeless in the sense that they and their families are all over the planet, not really settling down anywhere permanently.

Pointing out that they exist whilst criticising their lack of involvement in our society is hardly xenophobic.
 
^ here's a friendly 'tip' for you. How about you stop grouping and labeling people based solely on the fact that they weren't born in this country and consider that once admitted and legally nationalized each of them has as much a right as you and I to make the most, or the least, of this great nation of ours. Let's all hope for the former. Let's further reflect on the fact that this City in particular is uniquely peppered with such a wonderful range of cultures and traditions and that is something that we should be fostering and encouraging in my opinion.

This is Multiculturalism, and does define new waves of immigration vs older pre-Multiculturalism waves of immigration where people actively sought what Canada demanded of them.

This is the clause that I believed stirred a minor disruption in the harmony force field.
 
MTown and Tewder are right. I am an immigrant. And I know many an immigrant who have used this country simply to get a western passport. I for one support tightening up immigration standards so there is more of a focus on getting migrants who want to make a life here. And I also support increasing the time it takes to get citizenship. 3 years is ridiculously short.

As for accomodating these folks who come here just to study and binge drink for a few years, I have no problems with handing out more student and visitors visas. And I don't even have a problem with having any of them invest money here. But we shouldn't be handing out citizenship to people who refuse to have any sincere attachment to this country beyond a panic room in Toronto.
 
There have always been immigrants who just come to make some money, get established and head back home...and there always will be.

It's starting to happen in the other direction too.
 
Just for the record, I was not bringing forth an opinion of the state of our immigration policies. I was simply coming to the defence of Tewder seeing as he was being gratuitously labelled as xenophobic.


terrafirma, I don't know what you're smoking but I'd like some: I have nothing against immigrants taking full advantage of all this country has to offer them when they're settled and don't disagree that they have the same rights as me in this regard.

Like what, do you think I go around with a chip on my shoulder, begrudging immigrants their rights? Man, I'd have to hate my own parents. WTF! :rolleyes:

No one here is being xenophobic in even the remotest sense of the word and I suggest you keep your name-calling to yourself. No one's interested.
 
MTown and Tewder are right. I am an immigrant. And I know many an immigrant who have used this country simply to get a western passport. I for one support tightening up immigration standards so there is more of a focus on getting migrants who want to make a life here. And I also support increasing the time it takes to get citizenship. 3 years is ridiculously short.

Three years is short relative to other countries (the standard is ~5 years?), but I don't think that really matters. From what I gather, that's a big reason why a lot of immigrants chose Canada over other countries and if we want to attract the best we need incentives for them to come here (rather than a more well known country like the US or UK). If an immigrant can pass the test after three years, why make them wait a few more? Besides, countries that have a longer wait time for citizenship are no better at integrating immigrants than we are, and in many cases, integration is remarkably poorer.

To put this into perspective I've put next to each country the amount of time an adult immigrant needs to spend in the country before they are eligible for citizenship:
Canada - 3 out of the past 4 years
Australia - 4 years, no more than 12 months of which could be spent outside of the country including no more than 3 months outside the country in the year preceding the application for naturalization
France - 5 years, although immigrants coming from Francophone countries may have this requirement waived
Germany - 8 years
New Zealand - until 2010, 3 years, after 2010, 5 years (keep in mind that permanant residents in NZ already enjoy the right to vote)
United Kingdom - 5 years
United States - 30 out of the past 60 months (during which the applicant cannot have spent more than 6 continuous months outside the country)

Our time period is pretty much the same as Australia's, which makes sense as I believe our two countries have the highest per capita levels of immigration. To get Australian citizenship, one has to intend to remain in the country, which is something we could potentially implement here and would probably do more good than an extension of the waiting period. Honestly though, I think while there are problems with integration in Canada, we do a much much better job than a lot of other places. Integration requires an effort on the part of both the immigrant and the people born in that country. I think this is our leg-up over much of the world - increasingly more Canadians are being exposed to more cultures, the various cultures are mixing, and most immigrant groups already have well established communities here that can act as bridges towards integration. Our image of Canada needs to change as much as it did with the arrivals of Jews, Ukrainians, Italians, etc. in that our culture changed as they all became a part of it.

The article about the Iranian community in Toronto sounds to me like a woman complaining about "the kids today," nothing different from when my sixth generation grandmother complains about the shortness of girls' skirts, the rudeness of waiters, etc. This is all rather irrelevant to the original post though and really should belong in a thread about immigration.
 
Somehow the City's population continues to expand rapidly despite your politically incorrect assertions. We know that it isn't the birthrate that is bailing us out, could it all be from inter-migration from other cities and provinces?

Sacrificing 'truth' for political correctness is lazy, patronizing and dangerous, as are your comments. Moreover, I never claimed to be opposed to immigration (please point out where I did), and my comments are in no way 'politically incorrect'. I can love and value diversity and pluralism yet still not support Multiculturalism.


Or is it possible that there are actually foreigners (and I'll venture a guess that they don't come from the same country as you did?) who come here and plant roots? Or maybe even open an outstanding restaurant or two?

... so now I'm a 'racist' xenophobe? Apparantly you exempt yourself from the 'venturing guesses' of intolerant lazy assumptions and pre-conceived stereotypes.

This McCarthy-like paranoia of seeing 'racists' and xenophobes everywhere shuts down any sincere respectful dialogue of an issue, as any witch hunt does. Not being able to discuss 'immigration' - or any issue that touches our nation and society - and challenge government policy for 'fear' of being branded is a cautionary example of how freedom of thought and expression are so easily compromised.

Canada exercises the right and responsibility to make demands on those who are permitted to come here and settle, and to establish any expectations on newcommers it sees fit. It also has the right to reject belief systems and cultural practices of other lands and peoples, and to decide who gets to come here according to whichever parameters it sees fit. In short, it is Canada's perogative to be discriminatory about immigration, as any nation is, and this has nothing to do whatsoever with racism, xenophobia or political correctness. Quebec discriminates in favour of francophone immigrants but this doesn't make Quebec a xenophobic racist place.

Terrafirma is on sinking ground here and needs to challenge his/her own preconceived notions and prejudices.
 
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Good god I just thought of something! Humans act in their own self interests! I just blew my own mind!

Listen I'm all for immigration reform etc. but some people take this stuff too seriously. Like should we burn the houses and relatives of Canadians who find work, love, opportunity elsewhere in the world? Come on. Are they just acting in their own self interest? Of course. Are people who come here for opportunity or even to "use the system" just acting in their own self interest? Of course. People act in their own self interest. Repeat that 10 times in your head. Even when people try to foster social cohesion, volunteer their time and resources, give gifts etc. they are still just acting in their own self interest. It's just that sometimes your own self interest aligns itself with others.
 

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