Homelessness and Panhandling in Toronto

[Admiral Beez]

Really the problem is that some really messed up idealists have this warped idea that because Toronto has homeless people and such we are a better and more open society.

Don't forget that it's easy to be open minded and accepting of everything, since it takes no effort or time on your part. We like to call it freedom, but IMO a lot of us are just too lazy to care and thus say do whatever you want. It's those with principles who draw the line in the sand and say this is the limit of our acceptance. One day, when a tourist is attacked or the tourist books start referring to Toronto as a 21st Century version New York in the 1970s, we'll stand up, shake off our complacency and draw that line in the sand. But until then, we'll continue to have a fear or laziness towards taking action, and the city will continue to decay.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Lol, I hope you didn't make that up to take a shot at me. The only time I can remember it happening, I was around my mid-teens and I was short a quarter to get into the ttc. Cut me some slack. Also forgive me for taking on the naive stance of wanting to help someone out of a bit of trouble and not taking on the correct stance of "everyone's a scammer".

Have a yard of slack, I was speaking of my own experience only.

Everyone (who asks for money) is a scammer. Everyone else works for money, which I suppose is what the scammer thinks he's doing.

 

[Tewder]

Tewder:What you've just said is rather misinformed - do you know just how "adequate" our support infrastructure is, really? Like, how much welfare payments are relative to cost of living, or the current waiting list for affordable housing? Or how accessible mental health services are? To throw out this "we're not exactly short on social services here" line without a clear understanding of the actual system is patently pointless.

Travel the world a little and see what hardship truly is.

So how do we deal with the reality then, given the limitations in the system? Do we arrest the homeless, and see how far the current support system takes them? Or do we wait till a crisis happens and then the homeless having to end up using far more costly services, such as jails, hospital ERs, etc? Or do we take a more Darwinian approach?AoD

I know, how about we raise taxes more! There's a novel Canadian idea!! Lets tax people at 50%, heck while at it lets raise it to 75%, after all the government and bureaucrats and social workers know what's best for eveybody, don't they? Then, and only then, will we truly be able to save everybody from themselves.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Tewder:

Travel the world a little and see what hardship truly is.

My dear, I came from a society that pays far less attention to plight of the poor, and believe me I have seen what "true hardship", by Canadian standards is. Is that what you wanted to happen here? Besides, have YOU suffered true hardship? So quite frankly, take your patronizing crap back where it came from.

I know, how about we raise taxes more! There's a novel Canadian idea!! Lets tax people at 50%, heck while at it lets raise it to 75%, after all the government and bureaucrats and social workers know what's best for eveybody, don't they? Then, and only then, will we truly be able to save everybody from themselves.

Interesting that you should start up with the premise that we should ban panhandling because of the assumption that we have adequate social services, and when confronted with your lack of knowledge of such, falls back into the good old we can't do everything and it will cost too much, so why bother line. Why am I not surprised? If you had balls, you would have admitted that's exactly your point all along. Beyond that, the point I am making is at the end of the day, not dealing with the issue by putting a reasonable level of resources could very well end up costing everyone more - Jails and hospitals are far more expensive social services than basic housing, for example.

Oh btw, given banning panhandling requires the use of government authority, I would say they do indeed know what's best for everybody, it seems.

AoD

 

[Hydrogen]

Surprise!

A relatively frequent panhandler on Queen was being arrested this afternoon - and was in possession of a quantity of light brown powder.


Okay; we all have different angles on panhandling, and we all know that a portion are scammers (people who otherwise need not panhandle, but do so anyway), the interesting thing would be to find out how they come to pick this role, and how they view the people they beg from. Like many of you, I just can't imagine how ashamed I would feel doing something like this.

 

[lordmandeep]

than basic housing,

yes perfect idea, create more public housing monstrosities in Toronto.

Sure we could lets say build these projects all around the city and such but for the real homeless. Most panhandlers have a home and most are from out of town as well according to the police chief. If you ban panhandling the some will go to other cities and the others who were scammers will be stooped. Then you deal with the true needy.

We need to help the needy, but remember help those who truly need it.

 

[theman23]

yes perfect idea, create more public housing monstrosities in Toronto.

As opposed to building them in the 'burbs? That wouldn't go over too well with the 905ers.

I have nothing else to add.

 

[lordmandeep]

i don't get your point. I don't think they should be built anywhere at all.

The truth is that when we created public housing for the poor it was always hundreds or thousands of units in a poor area of the city. We all know what that did...


I think mixing social housing with normal housing is the best option...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It's already mixed...on a macro, city-wide scale, at least.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I think mixing social housing with normal housing is the best option...

I think the city should not be in the housing business, and instead should consider selling off all public housing and then issuing rental subsidies to familes that need assistance. The mixed model is popular now, but let's see if Regent Park works any better before we call it a success.

 

[Tewder]

Tewder:
My dear, I came from a society that pays far less attention to plight of the poor, and believe me I have seen what "true hardship", by Canadian standards is. Is that what you wanted to happen here? Besides, have YOU suffered true hardship? So quite frankly, take your patronizing crap back where it came from.

Thank you for agreeing with me. To be clear: Those conditions you speak of, that you have witnessed yourself in your own personal experience, do NOT exist here. Canada has one of the best support systems anywhere. No system is perfect, but the fact remains that there will always be those who resist help no matter what is offered, so to go back to my original comment - that you had so imperiously attacked - I'm tired of the misinformed and myopic - if we're going to throw around obnoxious personal comments as you do - knee-jerk reaction that says we have to put up with panhandlers until society deigns to pony up more money, and whatever may be enough money to eradicate the problem. Well, 'my dear', there never will be 'enough' money for that.

Interesting that you should start up with the premise that we should ban panhandling because of the assumption that we have adequate social services, and when confronted with your lack of knowledge of such, falls back into the good old we can't do everything and it will cost too much, so why bother line.AoD

You have failed to prove that funding is inadequate. Making unfounded statements that funding is inadequate does not constitute 'confronting' me with an alleged lack of knowledge. Nice try, but it wont fly with me. So to reverse your argument back on you: it is interesting that you should start up with the premise that we shouldn't ban panhandling, no matter what the implications, because of the assumption that we have inadequate services.

Why am I not surprised? If you had balls, you would have admitted that's exactly your point all along. Beyond that, the point I am making is at the end of the day, not dealing with the issue by putting a reasonable level of resources could very well end up costing everyone more - Jails and hospitals are far more expensive social services than basic housing, for example.AoD

What can I even say to this? This is so rude and unwarranted as to be not worthy of comment.... Shame, I would expect more from a moderator.

 

[Admiral Beez]

What can I even say to this? This is so rude and unwarranted as to be not worthy of comment.... Shame, I would expect more from a moderator.

Tewder, why are you letting him bait you? Just ignore it and move on, IMO.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Given the scope of the challenge, Toronto needs considerably more than our present stock of about 60,000 units of public housing, since the free-enterprise system is clearly doing next to nothing for these unfortunate people.

 

[AndreaPalladio]

Don't forget that it's easy to be open minded and accepting of everything,

Based on what you write, being open minded is impossible for you. You are the proof that your own assertion is false. No surprise there.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Based on what you write, being open minded is impossible for you. You are the proof that your own assertion is false. No surprise there.

There's my burn for the day. I was wondering where you were. We do have a trend you and I don't we, wherein I post a viewpoint and then you come in and insult or berate me usually without adding anything else to the topic of discussion, followed by me trying to win you over, only to be cut down again and again. I feel like one of those poor suiters in a Bronte novel, if only I could win the fair Andrea's good opinion.

I know you don't care, but for the record I have been very open minded on this thread, and IMO write from many different points of view on almost every topic I consider. You will find those on forums that simply wish to get their point across and will never open themselves up to being convinced that another point of view has merit, but that's not me. If you tell me that Howard Hampton is the best potental leader for Ontario, I'll definitely listen to your point of view and never berate you.