Leo_Chan
Senior Member
So does this confirm the Province will be responsible for the $18B?
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GTHA Regional Transit Amalgamation Discussion: Superlinx/Subway Upload
- Thread starter hw621
- Start date
rbt
Senior Member
I'm not sure it matters much. If the province takes on most future capital expenses then the TTC will probably start paying a lease; a capital expense becomes an operating expense.
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steveintoronto
Superstar
First off, that document is a wish list, It's a 'proposal on how to proceed'.
When we see legislation, we'll be seeing legally binding mechanisms...pending any court decisions or further legal bartering after. Ostensibly that's in December.
All we know at this point is that *ostensibly* this is moving ahead. Frankly, I wish the City would retain outside counsel. Their own legal department is milquetoast at best.
nfitz
Superstar
As the proposal is strictly for uploading infrastructure, and the document that the province signed clearly states that "the responsibility for day-to-day operations, including labour relations, remains with the City"" then surely this is not regional transit amalgamation at all, and nothing to do with creation of a centralized super agency.
As such, discussions of this proposal are off-topic for this thread!
Or perhaps someone should change the thread title to something less overdramatic. Hopefully this will put an end to those who have been claiming that TTC won't be operating the subways, and that the TTC operations will be split in two!
As such, discussions of this proposal are off-topic for this thread!
Or perhaps someone should change the thread title to something less overdramatic. Hopefully this will put an end to those who have been claiming that TTC won't be operating the subways, and that the TTC operations will be split in two!
City knows their limitations and frequently retains outside counsel. It's Metrolinx that has the poor track record here, as evidenced by their various deals with the city in the past, and their disastrous attempt to cancel the Bombardier LRV contract, which ended up getting thrown out of court, with Metrolinx eventually agreeing to pay Bombardier a significantly higher cost per car!
WislaHD
Superstar
So to recap:
If Druggie thinking he is screwing over Toronto means the province assumes liability for the cost of maintaining and expanding subway infrastructure, then that doesn't sound all that bad.
- Day-to-day operations remains with the city
- Ownership and maintenance of new and existing goes to province
If Druggie thinking he is screwing over Toronto means the province assumes liability for the cost of maintaining and expanding subway infrastructure, then that doesn't sound all that bad.
steveintoronto
Superstar
What document? The Province has signed nothing. The Province's "document" will be binding legislation.
nfitz
Superstar
Pretty much. Which is what Kathleen Wynne's people said when she proposed this last Spring.
It doesn't - and should reduce demands on the city's budget. WIth the limit on debt, now city can spend more money on bus and streetcar expansion instead.
I've no idea why so many are so against this scheme, that seems to have worked well to get Line 5 and Line 6 built.
nfitz
Superstar
The terms of reference that was announced today. See this earlier post. It was signed by the province's Deputy Minister of Transportation, along with Michael Lindsay (the Special Advisor to Cabinet on Transit Upload)
WislaHD
Superstar
Not to mention it gives the City more freedom to not commit funds to projects like a Sheppard East subway extension.
thettctransitfanatic
Senior Member
Hopefully it does. Scarborough right now many areas have limited transit access, mostly by buses. If we can get the automobile gods upset just to build the Line 2 extension, then we can do it!
steveintoronto
Superstar
Where exactly is it dated and signed?
Last time I checked, the City legal department didn't create legislation at QP. Just a small point you might wish to consider...
The above is purely *Terms of Reference*. It's what the City would like the Province to agree to.
Ford is infamous for ignoring signed intents. Completely ignoring them! And doing the exact opposite to what he stated. And that is the most likely outcome here.
"Promise made, promise kept". My ass...
The City had best retain outside legal counsel, and the best there is, because the only way to pin Ford down is with the Law.
I'm pro-uploading, but with honest people, and honest terms. We lack that on both sides in this imminent shit-show.
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thettctransitfanatic
Senior Member
No , it doesn't. As a matter of fact, if you think about, this might be good in fitting in with Tory's "Let's build more transit" vision.
nfitz
Superstar
Presumably on a hardcopy somewhere in an office downtown.
The city and province have both announced it's been signed. A document has been released naming who from the province signed it.
I'm really not sure what you are asking here.
Do you believe that these people did not sign it?
ssiguy2
Senior Member
On a more basic question...………...why does QP want to upload the subways to begin with? I don't understand what in it for QP as they would inherit all the maintenance, operation, and fleet renewal costs and yet not get any of the revenue. What am I missing?
nfitz
Superstar
The same reason they uploaded the former Transit City Line 5 and Line 6, and are paying 100% of construction costs.
The reasons are outlined in the document:
- Expedited implementation of a greater number of priority regional transit projects, made possible by the Province’s ability to accelerate procurement, permitting and approvals, and to effectively undertake capital construction;
- An enhanced ability to plan a more efficient regional transit network across the GTHA, with improved connectivity achieved, for example, through fare and service integration; and,
- A greater fiscal flexibility to invest in and deliver additional transit projects, and to address essential deferred maintenance needs, which would be effected through amortized provincial capital expenditures on owned assets”
Basically, the province has much more capacity to use debt-based financing, and there's accounting benefits to owning the asset for which the debt is acquired. Presumably then it doesn't show in the deficit.
Keep in mind it's the bureaucrats writing this, not the Conservative Party. I suspect that once the party figures out that the province has already signed away operation of the subway to the city and the amount of maintenance costs that this new asset requires, this will be still-born.
I assume the city is bending-over-backwards to provide information because it's so clearly a massive undertaking. I'm also guessing that it's in anticipation of this negotiation, that the TTC suddenly went from providing a 10-year capital budget to a 15-year capital budget this year, which hits the $billions of subway costs provided to resignal line 2, replace trains, platform doors, etc.
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