Greyhound: Apart from that, how was your experience today?

[Hank]

hm...okay so how about in this instance with religious cults/terrorists? The suicidal manics rammed the plane into the world trade center in the name of "god". Since they are not right of mind, they considered the Americans evil and a threat to society. Would that be considered murder or mentally ill?

We can't say that terrorists are not 'right of mind' simply because they did something they thought was justified in the name of god (in that case a lot of people wouldn't be right of mind). Terrorists feel justified in their actions, but they recognize that, by the laws of the society they are attacking, what they are doing would be considered 'wrong'. They can appreciate the consequences of murdering someone, they just don't care (because they think it's a justified murder).

 

[Admiral Beez]

What about the father who drinks too much, and then takes his near naked kids into a blizzard, where they die of exposure? Seems the courts deemed he could avoid intent or criminal responsibility through drink.

 

[golodhendil]

but he just got sentenced to 3 years..

 

[waterloowarrior]

You can kill your whole family and be allowed out in 2-3 years if found ncr because of schizophrenic delusions (Daniel Maxheleau)... unfortunately a lot of these cases could have been avoided if people were forced to stay in treatment. I think we need to look at whether our collective rights should trump individual rights.... of course having the government lock away people with mental illnesses and force them to take medicine when they haven't committed a crime doesn't really seem too nice. According to the G&M today, right now in ON you have to prove that the patients have a potential for physical harm. Other provinces have broader criteria.

 

[Admiral Beez]

but he just got sentenced to 3 years..

36 months for killing two children? Conrad Black got six years for removing boxes of files from his office (albeit in another jurisdiction), and this guy gets 36 months?

 

[kEiThZ]

36 months for killing two children? Conrad Black got six years for removing boxes of files from his office (albeit in another jurisdiction), and this guy gets 36 months?

Don't you know....capital gains (or losses) are far more important than children. Those kids are dead and gone. The angry shareholders are still around.

 

[Whoaccio]

What about the father who drinks too much, and then takes his near naked kids into a blizzard, where they die of exposure? Seems the courts deemed he could avoid intent or criminal responsibility through drink.

That doesn't really affect the argument one way or another. Pauchay wasn't charged with manslaughter or murder for the deaths because he was intoxicated and had no intent to cause death. He was charged with criminal negligence causing death though because he royally screwed up his responsibility to his children. He had the proper mental faculties to realize that getting drunk while parenting is not a great idea. Li though seems to have had no such ability.

 

[toraerach]

What about the father who drinks too much, and then takes his near naked kids into a blizzard, where they die of exposure? Seems the courts deemed he could avoid intent or criminal responsibility through drink.

That wasn't the reason he got the sentence he did and the two cases are completely different - one involving a murder charge, one involving a charge of criminal neglect causing harm. In the later case, the accused did not plead not guilty due to insanity, but plead guilty.

Criminal neglect causing death has no minimum sentence unless a firearm is involved (which carries a 4 year minimum imprisonment), though in all cases a life sentence remains an option. Due to the fact that this man was Aboriginal and lived on reserve, a recommended sentence came from his community's judging circle. The judging circle recommended a conditional sentence, but due to a recently passed law this recommendation could not be implemented. This new law stipulates that certain offences causing harm must carry a minimum three year prison sentence, and that is what the judge gave him. Keep in mind that the Crown was only seeking five years imprisonment. At least this is my understanding.

The fact is that you or I can read the headlines or the court documents or whatever, but we only get the basic (and often) sensationalized facts. In the case of the man responsible for criminal neglect causing death, I would assume that the judge would know a bit more about the situation than anyone here. I mean, even the judging circle in his own community where this tragedy happened saw reasons for a lighter sentence.

We can't forget that retribution is only one of the many goals of punishment through the legal system. Others include deterence, removal, compensation, rehabilitation, etc. The judge has to take all of these things into consideration before handing down a sentence, which takes a lot more time and a lot more thought than reading a headline on the Sun. Personally, I don't feel the immensity of a tragedy should be measured in years the convict spends in prison.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Due to the fact that this man was Aboriginal and lived on reserve, a recommended sentence came from his community's judging circle.

That's nuts. Do we have other ethnically based judging circles? How about the next time the descendant son of a Caribbean immigrant guns down someone in public, we let the Jamaican-Canadian community judge him?

Actually, that might not be such a bad idea. My daughters' godmother is Jamaican-born, as are a large percentage of the grandmothers in my church. If they got hold of one of the Jamaican-descendant gangstas, he'd wish he'd gone to jail

 

[ganjavih]

I think the Forensic Psychiatrist in this case said it best when he said that both McLean and Li were victims of schizophrenia at its worst and untreated. People need to understand, like any other organ in the body, the brain can fail us.

 

[AKS]

We can't say that terrorists are not 'right of mind' simply because they did something they thought was justified in the name of god (in that case a lot of people wouldn't be right of mind). Terrorists feel justified in their actions, but they recognize that, by the laws of the society they are attacking, what they are doing would be considered 'wrong'. They can appreciate the consequences of murdering someone, they just don't care (because they think it's a justified murder).

If you state that "they recognize that, by laws of society they are attacking, what they were doing would be considered 'wrong'. They can appreciate the consequences of murdering someone, they just don't care (because they think it's a justified murder)"

Li knew what he did was wrong deemed by laws of society

An agreed statement of facts read out in the Winnipeg courtroom said Li, blood still smeared on his face from the attack, politely apologized to police when he was arrested and pleaded with officers to take his life.

"I'm sorry. I'm guilty. Please kill me."

He even tried to run away cuz he knew what he did was wrong.

It was then that Li tried numerous times to leave the bus. But he was locked inside and, according to the statement, returned to McLean's body and methodically carved it up further. Police arriving on scene asked him to drop the knife and he said he "had to stay on this bus forever."

But he eventually tried to escape out a window and was taken into custody.

Anyhow, I think Li should be imprisoned for life no matter in an institute or jail or wherever. What he did was cannibalism besides murder.

 

[ganjavih]

Li knew what he did was wrong deemed by laws of society

If he thought he was killing a demon that was about to kill him, I don't think that's true.

 

[cowpie]

If he thought he was killing a demon that was about to kill him, I don't think that's true.

I wonder how many people just game the system though. I had a former friend who got a free apartment because he seemed to pretend to be (or at least exaggerate) bipolar. As he told me, "hey it's not too bad."

And overall, they're still a threat to society. How about all the guys who push people onto subway tracks (Adenir DeOliveira said he heard voices). Whether or not they're aware of their problems, society certainly feels the effects. And medication is definitely not a cure-all. All the 'support' in the world can't substitute for actually being locked up.

 

[Admiral Beez]

How about all the guys who push people onto subway tracks (Adenir DeOliveira said he heard voices).

Why can't they ever hear nice voices?

 

[AKS]

Why can't they ever hear nice voices?

That's probably their subconsciousness. Everyone has a good and bad side to them. It's just your education that teaches you from doing right or wrong. When a situation or decision comes up, you get to responses. Either do this or don't do this. That might be the "voices" they hear. With ying there's yang. I'm sure everyone has a good and evil side to them. It just depends which you decide to follow.