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GO Transit: Union Station Shed Replacement & Track Upgrades (Zeidler)

mdrejhon said:
I believe you if it was done today, but:

Aren't Metrolinx suggesting this under ~2031 assumptions?
-- Full deployment of a PTC/CBTC type system to European-quality standards (moving-block or smaller-blocks). Train chasing each other at much tighter distances.
-- Full deployment of USRC digital signalling infrastructure replacing 1930s infrastructure
-- USRC approach speed upgrades from both east and west
-- Short dwells similar to other GO stations (1 minute dwell) instead of Union (3 minute dwell)
-- Full electrification through Union with faster-accelerating trains
-- New GO Transit Control Centre (GTCC) at Oakville
Click to expand...

The new signalling system getting installed in the USRC doesn't really help much of this other than (finally) allowing for somewhat higher speeds. It doesn't change the physics that are already in place, and will continue to be in place. It's still going to be reliant on some other system - let's call it PTC for now - to provide a safety overlay to allow for tighter headways. And considering how little movement we've seen on Metrolinx on their current PTC installation, I don't see much hope for them being in a hurry to install it on the rest of the system - at least until Transport Canada mandates it (and again, look at how that's going).

In fact, the only place where the new signalling system will help is that it allows for double-berthing of trains - and with only a slight amount of luck, that may be in place by 2019, not 2031+. That alone will provide the biggest benefit in terms of capacity at the station.

Also, short dwells in Union Station are only possible upon the completion of bigger/wider platforms, not the other way around. And frankly they aren't possible with the advent of double-berthing, anyways.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
smallspy said:
In fact, the only place where the new signalling system will help is that it allows for double-berthing of trains - and with only a slight amount of luck, that may be in place by 2019, not 2031+. That alone will provide the biggest benefit in terms of capacity at the station.



Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Click to expand...

I've often wondered if the newesh signals I see above the platforms at the 0.00 mileage mark, which is the midpoint of the platform, is intended to allow for double berthing.
 
Allandale25 said:
I've often wondered if the newesh signals I see above the platforms at the 0.00 mileage mark, which is the midpoint of the platform, is intended to allow for double berthing.
Click to expand...

I don't think that Alstom has started resignalling the trainshed yet, so I wouldn't think so.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
mdrejhon said:
I believe you if it was done today, but:
..
.....
......
Click to expand...

Could you please make a tiny attempt to make your posts a bit more concise? I’m not convinced the essay lengths are conducive to getting your points across.


Thank you kindly.
 
smallspy said:
The new signalling system getting installed in the USRC doesn't really help much of this other than (finally) allowing for somewhat higher speeds. It doesn't change the physics that are already in place, and will continue to be in place. It's still going to be reliant on some other system - let's call it PTC for now - to provide a safety overlay to allow for tighter headways. And considering how little movement we've seen on Metrolinx on their current PTC installation, I don't see much hope for them being in a hurry to install it on the rest of the system - at least until Transport Canada mandates it (and again, look at how that's going).

In fact, the only place where the new signalling system will help is that it allows for double-berthing of trains - and with only a slight amount of luck, that may be in place by 2019, not 2031+. That alone will provide the biggest benefit in terms of capacity at the station.

Also, short dwells in Union Station are only possible upon the completion of bigger/wider platforms, not the other way around. And frankly they aren't possible with the advent of double-berthing, anyways.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Click to expand...
There's sad irony in that interviews with Vetter reveal his stated intent to pursue better signalling and control:
[...]
What has to be done to improve Union?

I'm very keen on level boarding. It allows lower dwell times, it allows for better throughput of fleets. If we are going to move towards a higher-frequency service, operations through that corridor needs to be segmented. The key in a busy corridor is to minimize [train] crossings. Even if it's half a minute, it's a half a minute lost. Definitely [we're looking to buy] a signalling system solution that is more automated. It allows you to safely manage a huge capacity of trains through a narrow corridor with great effect. [...]
Click to expand...
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...6661436/?ref=https://www.theglobeandmail.com&

This problem has been identified for decades. Little changes. Some European cities have had greater throughput and higher passenger numbers with less tracks for almost a century. I don't want to comment too much on Vetter, he's a newbie, maybe he's just whistling the corporate tune, but he might as well be saying "move along folks, nothing to see here". I get no sense of a harbinger for change.
 
steveintoronto said:
There's sad irony in that interviews with Vetter reveal his stated intent to pursue better signalling and control:

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...6661436/?ref=https://www.theglobeandmail.com&

This problem has been identified for decades. Little changes. Some European cities have had greater throughput and higher passenger numbers with less tracks for almost a century. I don't want to comment too much on Vetter, he's a newbie, maybe he's just whistling the corporate tune, but he might as well be saying "move along folks, nothing to see here". I get no sense of a harbinger for change.
Click to expand...
Sadly, the incompetence of Metrolinx will also be on him, and he will likely be tossed out when the Progressive Conservatives get around to cleaning up the Metrolinx wing of the Liberal party.
 
BurlOak said:
Sadly, the incompetence of Metrolinx will also be on him, and he will likely be tossed out when the Progressive Conservatives get around to cleaning up the Metrolinx wing of the Liberal party.
Click to expand...
I have to one-up you on that, Burl. I don't think it's political as much as ingrained mediocrity and back-patting. I'll agree that there might/probably was a political tinge in hiring someone who 'spoke their language, and did the dance', but isn't it just a little odd that the stated main reason for hiring him was to expedite the institution of RER? He knows the signal and control aspect isn't up to the job, he states it. But is he going to *insist* on the necessary changes before putting RER 'on the fast track'?

And here's where this might get testy if there is a change of government. *if he does start to push the agenda for change* (one can only hope)...is a Con regime going to be any more conducive to assisting that? I don't see the likes of Patrick Brown et al 'getting it'. Not in the least...
 
BurlOak said:
Sadly, the incompetence of Metrolinx will also be on him, and he will likely be tossed out when the Progressive Conservatives get around to cleaning up the Metrolinx wing of the Liberal party.
Click to expand...

Yes, if not for the utter incompetence of the PCs on the transit file during the decade they're in power, that is. Oh and never mind GO-ALRT.

AoD
 
steveintoronto said:
I have to one-up you on that, Burl. I don't think it's political as much as ingrained mediocrity and back-patting. I'll agree that there might/probably was a political tinge in hiring someone who 'spoke their language, and did the dance', but isn't it just a little odd that the stated main reason for hiring him was to expedite the institution of RER? He knows the signal and control aspect isn't up to the job, he states it. But is he going to *insist* on the necessary changes before putting RER 'on the fast track'?

And here's where this might get testy if there is a change of government. *if he does start to push the agenda for change* (one can only hope)...is a Con regime going to be any more conducive to assisting that? I don't see the likes of Patrick Brown et al 'getting it'. Not in the least...
Click to expand...
If transit ridership drops 20% and the price of oil drops below $20 a barrel, I could see Patrick Brown cutting transit expansion.
 
I think the pressure of transit ridership will be upwards - with the Union revitalization completion, the York TTC extension, King transit mall, and opening of Crosstown LRT. Conpletion of in-progress projects already potentially puts us on a structural path of increasing ridership on a GTHA per capita basis.

Even short term statistical fluctuations in ridership probably will not swing a full 20% downwards.
 
BurlOak said:
If transit ridership drops 20% and the price of oil drops below $20 a barrel, I could see Patrick Brown cutting transit expansion.
Click to expand...
I think that needs a few more qualifiers to be considered possible. GO continues to show expansion (TTC not, at least at present) and the $p/bbl in USD is going to remain roughly where it is now at equilibrium ($~50) for a few years yet.

I take it by deduction that you see P Brown maintaining a healthy and adaptive Metrolinx? Then he'd better make it a point. Here's what I understand of his message so far: "mghubukwjlviu subiwegye uawegfuywgu"

Btw: Opened this string on the first page as I forgot to sign-in before doing it.

I've got to repost the theme of the day from page 1:

70003854_642803b3e3.jpg


The romantic affair that we let slip....
 
Last edited:
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Yes, if not for the utter incompetence of the PCs on the transit file during the decade they're in power, that is. Oh and never mind GO-ALRT.
Click to expand...

GO's operating subsidy is up in the $400M range now. Wynne has boosted it substantially (from around $80M) with the addition of new services, etc. UPX and Presto are a non-trivial part of that.

Regardless of what happens with the capital projects, I expect a PC win (and following budget) will noticeably impact GO operations.
 
MORE PLATFORM CHANGES AT UNION STATION
STARTING NOVEMBER 29

Now that we’re finishing work on the train shed roof structure at Union Station, we’ll be making platform changes affecting some weekday trains starting November 29.

If you’re travelling on departing afternoon Milton, Kitchener, Lakeshore West and Barrie lines, you will need to board your train on different platforms. Always check the departures boards before heading up to the platform – platform changes can happen at any time.
Click to expand...

See link for details

Edit: looks like all the platforms at Union will finally be open, for the first time in many many years
 
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