GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[RandomBusGuy]

A second base fare is charged after transferring from GO to TTC and back to GO. I semi-frequently make a Guelph to Barrie journey taking the 407 West bus to Hwy 407, TTC to Downsview Park, and then the Barrie line train. I was charged $5.30 at the start of the trip, and again tapping on at Downsview Park GO.

Annoyingly, the paper ticket price for this journey is actually cheaper than using Presto by $1, though that difference is made back by the TTC discount only being valid with Presto.

 

[nfitz]

From my understanding of how the system works, you wouldn't be changed a base fare for your second trip. So your second trip would cost the amount on the fare calculator minus the base fare (which is $5.30 I think).

If you walked or taxied from Downsview Park to Highway 407 station, yes.

If you use the Presto on TTC in between - I don't know what would happen. Would be interesting to see though.

Might have to use a second Presto card for the TTC portion, to get the cheapest fare. And I've heard of people doing things like that on other transit systems!

My suspicion is that it would lose track of the first GO trip when charging the second. When I've tapped on TTC, and then on at GO a few minutes later, I've recently noticed that it ways something like "1 hour 50 minutes remaining). Then 30 minutes later, when I tap off of GO, it then says 2 hours 30 minutes remaining.

But I'm guessing.

 

[joet00]

I think Triplinx calculates fares as well as route alternatives....no?

I’ve found Triplinx to be clunky…but, for this exercise, I gave it another try.

First, as a baseline: From the GO Fare Calculator (all fares assume Presto)

Aurora to Downsview Park: $7.20
Hwy 407 or Yorkdale to Pearson: $6.18
(fare is the same for both departure points)

Aurora to Pearson - no transfer point: $10.17
Aurora to Pearson - transfer at Downsview Park/Hwy 407/Yorkdale (all have the same result): $8.67

So, for GO-TTC-GO, I would expect one of these variations:

$14.88 = $7.20 + $1.50 + $6.18 (GO base fare + TTC co-fare + GO base fare; no transfer credit on 2nd GO trip)

$11.67 = $10.17 + $1.50 (GO base fare between origin and destination + TTC co-fare)
$10.17 = $8.67 + $1.50 (GO fare between origin and destination including transfer credit + TTC co-fare)
I’m guessing these latter 2 are unlikely as fares are calculated at each tap.

Now, from Triplinx: I was surprised to find that Triplinx suggested Barrie Train --> TTC --> GO Bus, suggesting a trip via Route 40, with a cost of $13.38. Here is the fare breakdown on the search result:

Aurora to Downsview Park: $7.20 (base fare)
TTC: $1.50 (co-fare)
Hwy 407 BT to Pearson: $4.68 (GO fare minus $1.50 TTC credit)

So no GO-to-GO credit, but GO-to-TTC and TTC-to-GO credits are applied. That option saves a few bucks off the UP Express routing and is similar timewise (according to Triplinx).

Of course, what Presto actually deducts can be a different story. I’ll advise next time I take this trip, likely later next week.

 

[Megaton327]

I’ve found Triplinx to be clunky…but, for this exercise, I gave it another try.

First, as a baseline: From the GO Fare Calculator (all fares assume Presto)

Aurora to Downsview Park: $7.20
Hwy 407 or Yorkdale to Pearson: $6.18
(fare is the same for both departure points)

Aurora to Pearson - no transfer point: $10.17
Aurora to Pearson - transfer at Downsview Park/Hwy 407/Yorkdale (all have the same result): $8.67

So, for GO-TTC-GO, I would expect one of these variations:

$14.88 = $7.20 + $1.50 + $6.18 (GO base fare + TTC co-fare + GO base fare; no transfer credit on 2nd GO trip)

$11.67 = $10.17 + $1.50 (GO base fare between origin and destination + TTC co-fare)
$10.17 = $8.67 + $1.50 (GO fare between origin and destination including transfer credit + TTC co-fare)
I’m guessing these latter 2 are unlikely as fares are calculated at each tap.

Now, from Triplinx: I was surprised to find that Triplinx suggested Barrie Train --> TTC --> GO Bus, suggesting a trip via Route 40, with a cost of $13.38. Here is the fare breakdown on the search result:

Aurora to Downsview Park: $7.20 (base fare)
TTC: $1.50 (co-fare)
Hwy 407 BT to Pearson: $4.68 (GO fare minus $1.50 TTC credit)

So no GO-to-GO credit, but GO-to-TTC and TTC-to-GO credits are applied. That option saves a few bucks off the UP Express routing and is similar timewise (according to Triplinx).

Of course, what Presto actually deducts can be a different story. I’ll advise next time I take this trip, likely later next week.

This is correct. Taking a TTC trip "closes" your GO trip in exchange for the discount. It is frequently more cost effective to carry a 2nd presto card for TTC use in order not to "contaminate" your GO transfer on your main card. I do this regularly. My use case:

A) Using a single presto card:
Aurora to Union: $8.26
TTC trip somewhere in the Union area: $1.50
Union to Aurora return within 3 hours of initial southbound tap: $6.76
Total: $16.52

B) Using two presto cards:
Card 1 - Aurora to Union: $8.26
Card 2 - TTC Trip somewhere in the Union area: $3.00
Card 1 - Union to Aurora return within 3 hours of initial southbound tap: $3.56
Total: $14.82

Savings by using two cards: $1.70

Not a huge saving for the hassle of using two presto cards, but it can add up if you take a lot of within-3-hour GO transfer/return trips with a TTC trip in the middle.

 

[steveintoronto]

I've found a number of oddities in
METROLINX (the “Corporation”) Tariff of Fares (Effective September 2, 2017)
https://www.gotransit.com/static_files/gotransit/assets/pdf/Policies/By-Law_No2A.pdf

This one especially so, and possibly this apparent glitch is a result of merging the GO Tariffs and Fares within the greater Metrolinx structure, which of course includes UPX. Note the use of the term "Corporation":

[...]
4. When a passenger travels on the transit system from a point outside the City of Toronto to another point outside the City of Toronto, and can only do so by travelling through the City of Toronto by means of more than one transit service provided by the Corporation, the following rules apply in determining the total fare payable: (a) If there is more than one transit service available between the passenger’s point of departure and the City of Toronto or between the City of Toronto and the passenger’s destination point, the fare payable for each transit service shall be the lowest fare available for the trip, regardless of which transit service the passenger actually takes.
[...]

That indicates that taking a GO bus from say, Brampton to the airport, and then transferring to UPX to continue to ride to Union and out to say, Pickering, the premium fare UPX charge for the Weston to Airport segment is not applicable.

As UPX is further absorbed into the GO Transit operations, more of these anomalies will likely show, not least the allowance to have (gist) 'up to two dogs out of cages but on leash' on GO trains as well as UPX.

On further scrutiny, this is the real find:
"If there is more than one transit service available between the passenger’s point of departure and the City of Toronto".

I'm going to have to test this, as bussing it back into Toronto from the northwest to get to Bloor Station entails my taking the bus to Union, transferring to UPX to ride north to Bloor Station, a ridiculous round-about way of getting there when according to the Tariff, I can do it much more directly through Pearson.

Fascinating...

Addendum: Here's a point of ambiguity, albeit that might have to be read in the passenger's favour doing what I state above:
"can only do so by travelling through the City of Toronto by means of more than one transit service provided by the Corporation"

Interpretations?

 

[TransitBart]

What is the point ofthis discussion?

1. Presto’s programming is sloppy?
2. You like to discover ‘angles’?
3. Metrolinx has a lot of bureaucratic language around fares?
4. Metrolinx is chiselling you/us?
5. Other?

 

[steveintoronto]

What is the point ofthis discussion?

I posted it clearly, and I'm far from the only one to discuss this:

I'm going to have to test this, as bussing it back into Toronto from the northwest to get to Bloor Station entails my taking the bus to Union, transferring to UPX to ride north to Bloor Station, a ridiculous round-about way of getting there when according to the Tariff, I can do it much more directly through Pearson.

How much clearer does that need to be?

Getting into west end Toronto from Square One alone is a convoluted, indirect nightmare for a number of us. The Airport has been discussed as being opportune a number of times in these forums as a direct gateway in. IIRC @ShonTron has discussed this in the past, it's an obvious point until RER becomes reality. It seems the regs allow doing it without having to pay an entirely new fare, and a premium one at that.

 

[mdrejhon]

What is the point ofthis discussion?

1. Presto’s programming is sloppy?
2. You like to discover ‘angles’?
3. Metrolinx has a lot of bureaucratic language around fares?
4. Metrolinx is chiselling you/us?
5. Other?

Metrolinx 2041 public consultation showed a slide where Union is no longer the only hub in the GO network, having been aupplanted by interchange stations. Maekham-Brampton, Oakville-Brampton, Oshawa-Markham, Scarborough-Vaughan, etc.

The Guelph-Barrie trip pair is an outlier, but is in the same spirit. That trip pair should be consistently fare-integrated, whether you take TTC or not.

 

[steveintoronto]

Metrolinx 2041 public consultation showed a slide where Union is no longer the only hub in the GO network, having been aupplanted by interchange stations. Maekham-Brampton, Oakville-Brampton, Oshawa-Markham, Scarborough-Vaughan, etc.

The Guelph-Barrie trip pair is an outlier, but is in the same spirit. That trip pair should be consistently fare-integrated, whether you take TTC or not.

Exactly, as you outlined prior. Being dumped in Square One by either the 25 or 29 (Guelph or K/W routes) is like being stranded. You can take the 21P(?) to Union, after waiting at least twenty minutes (30 mins for the 29) and then a 50 min scheduled ride to Union, quite often very delayed due to the congestion on the QEW/Gardner, and then a walk from the Bus Station to the other end of Union to catch the UPX up to Bloor, altogether an average of almost an hour and a half to an already long trip. That's longer than the 29 takes from Guelph to Square One!

Or you can catch the MiWay 200 to Islington Station, and then pay yet another fare to get on the TTC. Or you can take a MiWay to Port Credit, and then pay an entirely new GO fare to take the train to Mimico or Exhibition to cycle up to Bloor West and Dundas. (I often have the bike with me). Or I can take a bus to York Mills, and take the subway all the way back to Dundas West. Or I can take another of two GO buses to the east end of the Mississauga Busway where the TTC claimed they were starting a route to Kipling. Except they haven't last time I checked and got stuck there. The buses run along Eglinton to the Spadina Subway.

Or I can take a Go bus from Square One to the airport, transfer onto UPX, and be at Bloor some ten minutes later. All on one fare if my initial read of the regs is correct. And so can others.

But some seem to think that fanciful and obfuscatory. What a concept, not having to add an hour to travel time taking you through the core of a congested city, paying at least one extra fare and hassle to do it after a long day cycling 100 kms or more.

Is it any wonder that Toronto is generations behind other cities when it comes to transit if people think knowing the regs to get the cheapest, most direct way of doing things is somehow subversive?

 

[nfitz]

I posted it clearly, and I'm far from the only one to discuss this:

I kind of missed your point too. Perhaps a short summary? Not sure what quoting yourself shows.

Are there ways to game the fares? Probably ... it is what it is.

I personally have enjoyed my return trip almost free on GO for a few years now, with Presto, as long as I start it within 3 hours of my first. Cheaper than TTC!

 

[steveintoronto]

I kind of missed your point too. Perhaps a short summary?

What you demonstrate is the inability for many to understand the regs as written, and the unwillingness to read them to realize that Metrolinx themselves are possibly violating their own Bylaw with UPX service premium charges to/from the airport for persons travelling into or out of Toronto the use of ML services at the rate GO themselves charge. The implication from this Bylaw is that a de-facto RER already exists in the Georgetown Corridor to and from the airport as that pertains to GO passengers crossing into or out of Toronto. Perhaps you fail to understand that UPX is part of the "Corporation"?

[...]
4. When a passenger travels on the transit system from a point outside the City of Toronto to another point outside the City of Toronto, and can only do so by travelling through the City of Toronto by means of more than one transit service provided by the Corporation, the following rules apply in determining the total fare payable: (a) If there is more than one transit service available between the passenger’s point of departure and the City of Toronto or between the City of Toronto and the passenger’s destination point, the fare payable for each transit service shall be the lowest fare available for the trip, regardless of which transit service the passenger actually takes.
[...]

@mdrejhon understands it. Others have in the past, although this is the first time I'm aware of the regs supporting the case. If anyone has a different interpretation of what it indicates, then by all means post it.

That indicates that taking a GO bus from say, Brampton to the airport, and then transferring to UPX to continue to ride to Union and out to say, Pickering, the premium fare UPX charge for the Weston to Airport segment is not applicable.

And in fact, even further interpretation of the clause indicates not even having to travel through Toronto for the "cheapest fare" but *to* or *from* Toronto, including by UPX via the Airport.

If there is more than one transit service available between the passenger’s point of departure and the City of Toronto or between the City of Toronto and the passenger’s destination point, the fare payable for each transit service shall be the lowest fare available for the trip, regardless of which transit service the passenger actually takes.

The term "Corporation" I specifically made clear in my first post on the subject as being defined by Metrolinx as *themselves*.

It's right at the top of the first page of the Bylaw:

https://www.gotransit.com/static_files/gotransit/assets/pdf/Policies/By-Law_No2A.pdf

The irony of this is that from the wording ML themselves state, this is already a SmartTrack manifestation of RER, the present failing being the last link from Weston to the Airport, where by ML's own wording, for 'overhead' passengers travelling from in or out of Toronto via the airport must match the lowest GO (ML) price for travelling *around the airport* (bypassing it).

In other words, in my case or any others' having to travel to/from Bloor Station to Square One for instance, where UPX is used to travel via Union Station for the regular GO fare, the same "lowest fare" must be matched if travelling via the Airport, which is much more direct and saves approximately an hour let alone being more reliable and less demanding physically.

Here is a possible exception, albeit it doesn't initially appear to meet the terms necessary to exclude UPX premium fares from the prior quoted section:

premium fare 2.10
Where more than one transit service is provided between two places by the Corporation, a local transit system, or a combination thereof, the Corporation may charge on any such service operated by it a premium fare and the amount of the premium fare shall be set out on the Corporation’s public website (www.gotransit.com).

That's an interesting clause in itself. If it pertains to the former quoted clause, then the interpretation necessary for it to be presents ML with a conundrum to satisfy "the fare payable for each transit service shall be the lowest fare available for the trip, regardless of which transit service the passenger actually takes."

Post Script July 8: Discussing this with a few others, and considering the timeline of the slow merging of UPX into GO Transit, and the Bylaw quoted being from Metrolinx (and an amalgam of the two branches' Bylaws), it's probable that UPX could have legally upheld the premium fare clause before that merger began.

I suspect that the politically motivated merger to try and correct a very flawed business model has produced a tariff that is an attempt to reconcile two different and not fully compatible modes of transit. Nothing demonstrates that more than the ridiculousness of still running two ticketing systems complete with separate Presto machines, and the fare anomaly between Weston and the Airport.

It's time to fold UPX completely into GO now the process has started, and to rewrite sections of the Metrolinx Bylaw and Tariff to eliminate conflicting clauses.

What could Metrolinx possibly be scared of? That the route would be even more popular? And where's Dougie being for "the People" and "the Folks" on this? Is this still a service for the elite on the taxpayers' dime, or should it be for all who need to connect through on GO Transit?

And what if it becomes so popular that it 'crams' airport travellers? Besides adding more service ( an obvious move albeit electrification would be necessary, so get on with it), the affected elites would just be paying regular GO fares per distance, and if they feel 'crammed'...they can take Uber.

 

[MisterF]

A short summary with 14 paragraphs.

 

[steveintoronto]

A short summary with 14 paragraphs.

The short summary has already been posted:
#12219

 

[bran]

Seems like more and more services are happening lately compared to past year or two. I may be wrong though and it may just be my routes

 

[nfitz]

What you demonstrate is the inability for many to understand the regs as written, and the unwillingness to read them to realize that Metrolinx themselves are possibly violating their own

No secret that many of the rules and by-laws are poorly written, unclear, inconsistent, and hard to access. This is equally true in both provincial and federal regulations and legislation.

Not sure what you said next as it was way TLDR.

My point however, is that you didn't state your initial point, so I don't know where you are going - and I'm not going to invest much effort trying to figure out your point, if you unwilling to express it simply yourself!