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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

No secret that many of the rules and by-laws are poorly written, unclear, inconsistent, and hard to access. This is equally true in both provincial and federal regulations and legislation.

Not sure what you said next as it was way TLDR.

My point however, is that you didn't state your initial point, so I don't know where you are going - and I'm not going to invest much effort trying to figure out your point, if you unwilling to express it simply yourself!
"many of the rules and by-laws are poorly written, unclear, inconsistent, and hard to access. This is equally true in both provincial and federal regulations and legislation" means that a simple answer isn't to be had to explain them.

That indicates that taking a GO bus from say, Brampton to the airport, and then transferring to UPX to continue to ride to Union and out to say, Pickering, the premium fare UPX charge for the Weston to Airport segment is not applicable.
 
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Just curious does anyone here know what the plug/outlet situation is like on the Niagara GO trains?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Hamilton/comments/79r2j8/go_train_vs_go_bus_toronto_hamilton/

[...]Around 10% of the older cars have power outlets and it's actually pretty random which ones do. All of the brand new cars do (4000s). Majority of the brand new cars at this point are cab cars so best chance at a power outlet is check the cab car at the west end of the train and if it's the new style you're in luck.
[...]
 
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I'm familiar with "TTC times two" where the "single, continuous trip" rule is bent to allow for a segment via GO. Does anyone know if the reverse is true or if there is a transfer credit of any sort if one travels GO-TTC-GO?

From time-to-time, I need to travel from York Region to the Pearson area. In the past, I've used YRT/Viva (or get a ride) to connect to GO's Route 40.

But with the launch of 2WAD train service, and with the Concord station/hub being a far-off improbability, I'm contemplating:

Barrie Train to Downsview Park
TTC Subway north to Hwy 407 (or south to Yorkdale)
GO Bus 40 (or 34) to Pearson

I believe the TTC trip would be charged $1.50 (co-fare).

Is there any discount/credit for the 2nd trip on the GO system, occurring within 3 hours of tapping on the train?

How much time is lost by taking tolhe train to union and transferring to a up express train (or kitchener train).

2+ transfers seem like a lot of waiting and potential for missed connections.
 
And what if it becomes so popular that it 'crams' airport travellers? Besides adding more service ( an obvious move albeit electrification would be necessary, so get on with it), the affected elites would just be paying regular GO fares per distance, and if they feel 'crammed'...they can take Uber.
If people feel they cannot get a train from Union to Pearson in a timely manner, say for the outbound rush of transatlantic services in the evening and those people returning to Ottawa and elsewhere after a day's business in Toronto, they will not be as inclined to take the train inbound either. At some point you risk the airport spur becoming a very expensive piece of infrastructure which the people who it was built for aren't using. Good news if you're the Island Airport I suppose.
 
How much time is lost by taking tolhe train to union and transferring to a up express train (or kitchener train).

2+ transfers seem like a lot of waiting and potential for missed connections.

In my case, the Kitchener Line is less desirable; Malton is further from my ultimate destination.

If Triplinx is to be believed, travel times are comparable. The Train-Subway-Bus option saves 5 minutes. Cost is more of a factor:

$13.38/84min vs. $17.51/89min if you take UPX. And, from the other replies, it sounds like the 2xPresto card approach could drive the cost of the former down further.

Coming in at $7.53/83min: Viva to GO Rte 40. Buses really are the workhorse of our current network.

But yes, there is something to be said for connecting to a service that runs every 15 mins vs. every hour.
 
If people feel they cannot get a train from Union to Pearson in a timely manner, say for the outbound rush of transatlantic services in the evening and those people returning to Ottawa and elsewhere after a day's business in Toronto, they will not be as inclined to take the train inbound either. At some point you risk the airport spur becoming a very expensive piece of infrastructure which the people who it was built for aren't using. Good news if you're the Island Airport I suppose.
This may be a valid point, but other cities have dealt with it, and Pearson could do same. First off, there's a very real problem with commuting taxpayers paying to subsidize exactly what you state: Preference for air-travellers, while the taxpayer is having to slug it for an hour longer going an indirect route to get to Weston or Bloor from the northwest via Union Station. That load is already being handled by UPX, just from the wrong end. How ass-backwards is that?

There are ways of offering flyers a seat without denying those who are paying the subsidy. Just as it's done at Union, for instance: Flyers line up one side, Joe Working Hoi Polloi the other. Flyers board first. Hoi Polloi get whatever seats are left over.

There's another easy way to effect fairness: Have a second station close to the airport that becomes the Hoi Polloi Central. Every other train goes to the airport, and continues to charge extra. And the alternate trains (interspersed with the Elite ones, for a total frequency of 7.5 mins south of Hoi Polloi Central) terminate at a station at, say....Malton. So the GO 40 bus will also call there, and others, such that until RER opens to Mt Pleasant or wherever, UPX also offers what is in effect 'SmartER' (SmartTrack and RER combined from say Malton to Union.) Union UPX may or may not be the southern terminal. I don't know the turnaround limit time, but suspect it can handle 7.5 mins. And perhaps VIA could also have a stop at Malton station too. What a concept.
At some point you risk the airport spur becoming a very expensive piece of infrastructure which the people who it was built for aren't using.
And being used by those who paid for it and continue to pay through the nose for it. Where's Dougie and his "For the People" and "The Folks" on this?
Good news if you're the Island Airport I suppose
And why not? The taxpayer is subsidizing them. Not to mention if UPX is such a vital concern, then UPX, as it is now folded into GO Transit, can serve two functions: First, getting Hoi Polloi the Taxpayer paying the bill to work and home, and secondly, if demand for The Elites is so great, then lease an operation to a *private enterprise* to do that, and charge what they feel is fit. They can use their own trainsets, or buy the Sharyos and run them, while Hoi Polloi settle for utilitarian electric ones running on the same tracks. This is a model done the world over.

Something very basic is being lost about all of this: Do we subsidize air carriers to fly people to their destinations? Then why should we be subsidizing their trip to the airport at the expense of Hoi Polloi trying to get about their day-to-day business paying their taxes to underwrite the Elites?

If I fly into Heathrow now, I have the choice of private or state run services going into central London, using exactly the same tracks and stations. Do the state run services block the flyers from getting seats?
As it unfurls across London over the next couple of years, Crossrail is expected to improve train travel within the city in a way many haven't seen in their lifetime.

But perhaps not everyone is eager for the arrival of Crossrail. Heathrow Express, for instance, has a direct new competitor on its Heathrow-to-Paddington patch — offering a train service that will be cheaper (more often than not), and isn't all that much slower than the Heathrow Express service anyway.

Unlike the Heathrow Express, Crossrail calls at other central London stations too. As one commentator says, "Why would you want to pay a premium fare to change at Paddington onto the tube or a taxi when you can get a through train to the West End, City and Canary Wharf?"

So does the flashy Heathrow Express — with its built-in TVs and Mercedes Benz-like logo — have what it takes to weather TfL's imminent arrival?

One Heathrow-Paddington service that Crossrail will spell the end of is Heathrow Connect. It's a thriftier service than the Express, and has a journey time of around 25 minutes — as opposed to the Express' 15 — calling at five west London stations between Paddington and the airport terminals.

TfL Rail will be taking over the Connect line from May 2018, with the service turning fully-fledged Crossrail in December 2019.

If the Heathrow Connect has capitulated so conclusively, why isn't the Express doomed too?

Since 1998, the Heathrow Express — or Heathrow FastTrain, as it was then — has proved a handy option for Londoners and tourists wanting to get to/from central London/Heathrow quickly. Taking just 15 minutes (a little longer for Terminal 5) the Express smashes the near-one-hour journey time on the Piccadilly line, and takes approximately a third of the time a car journey does.

In 19 years of service, it's carried in the region of 100 million passengers (not to mention all their suitcases) — so it's obviously doing something right.

Some of that something right might be the timetable. Starting from central London as early as 5.10am means that some catching morning flights have little choice but to use the Express. Crossrail's running times — including first and last trains of the day — have yet to be announced, with the timetable decided by Network Rail rather than TfL.

More important to the Express' survival are all those business people, for whom time is money. Heathrow Express' first Business Travel Insights Report reveals that of the 100 million passengers it's welcomed since 1998, around 60 million were business travellers.

Ask the average person who wasn't expensing their Heathrow Express journey what they'd change about it, and the answer will, more often than not, be 'price'.

Let's look at the 40% of Heathrow Express passengers who aren't using it for business.

Offering them a journey that's quicker than Crossrail by nine minutes probably isn't going to cut the mustard. The Crossrail fares have yet to be announced, but the price will most likely be stiff competition for Heathrow Express, a service that charges up to £32 for a single, 15-minute journey.

[...]
As our commentator noted at the beginning, Crossrail doesn't just go to Paddington; it'll also pass through central London, the City and Canary Wharf — three key places where visitors are likely to conduct business in London.

While Heathrow Express is making a concerted — and apparently, successful — effort to woo non-business travellers, it still risks losing a wedge of its faithful 3.1 million annual business clientele.

What can it do here? Lowering the price of business fares will likely do little. The continued offer of first class desks, power points, Wi-Fi and luggage space claws back some appeal for the Heathrow Express — but these seem mere trinkets compared to the holy grail of direct travel to, say Farringdon or Canary Wharf.

What Heathrow Express has on its hands now is a precarious juggling act: business passengers in one hand, leisure in the other — all the while Crossrail threatening to trip it up.
[...]
https://londonist.com/london/transport/is-crossrail-going-to-obliterate-the-heathrow-express

A Tale of Two Cities continued...
 
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Is it any wonder that Toronto is generations behind other cities when it comes to transit if people think knowing the regs to get the cheapest, most direct way of doing things is somehow subversive?
Cheer up Steve: While we ain't Europe, but visit most US cities (other than New York City or Chicago) -- Especially Mississauga sized cities -- and the situation is much more dismal.

To the point where Square One becomes a panthenon of bliss in comparison. Surprising but true.

Metrolinx's raison d'etre will slowly change this status quo. And being sufficiently arms length from Ford, will hopefully spare us from the 90s-era transit bloodbath (even if electrification is now suddenly uncertain) -- but it will take years to solider forward and fulfil integration.
 
Can you be more specific about how "the taxpayer" is subsidising the Island Airport? The 2016 PortsToronto Annual Report does not publish a full set of accounts.
My absolute apologies. I thought the lineage would be such that the reference of "taxpayers" would be assigned to the point under discussion: Subsidizing UPX.

Perhaps you're not familiar with it? (And note how Metrolinx is attempting *still* to increase ridership numbers to this day. Not quite your expressed fear, is it?)
Union Pearson Express ridership up, but still heavily subsidized
By BEN SPURRTransportation Reporter
Thu., May 25, 2017
[...]
Metrolinx spokesperson Anne Marie Aikins said the agency is “very pleased” with the new numbers. “The ridership level has grown much faster than we had even hoped for,” she said.

“We will continue to promote this service, which was delivered on time and on budget, because we want to see ridership continue to grow, and because we know that once folks use it, they’ll love it,” said Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca in a statement.

However, Aikins said she could not yet disclose how much the government is subsidizing each ride on the UPX.

“Those figures are just receiving their final audit, and they will be ready in the next few weeks, and we will be releasing all of that at that time,” Aikins said. The agency declined to provide estimates for the subsidy.

Metrolinx didn’t explicitly state the subsidy per ride in its financial reports for the first year of its operations either. But using ridership and revenue data made public in the agency’s annual report last June, the Star and other media outlets calculated that, for the 2015-2016 fiscal year, it was roughly $52.25 per trip, an enormous sum compared to Toronto public transit agencies.

A Star analysis of 2016-2017 data provided by Metrolinx suggests that the UPX per ride subsidy in the most recent fiscal year was much lower than that, but was still high, and could approach $20 per ride.

By comparison, the TTC subsidizes its passengers at a rate of about $1 per trip, while GO Transit’s subsidy is less than $1.50per passenger.

Metrolinx didn’t confirm the Star’s estimate, but Aikins said the agency is working to lower the UPX subsidy level.
[...]
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...idership-up-but-still-heavily-subsidized.html

More detail is available online if one feels the point isn't made above.

So let's see now, how to get the cost ratio down: How about getting more people to ride it? Normal working folks, or on their way home, or even better yet, from just outside the northwest corner of Toronto, and wanting to transfer through from a GO bus onto a line they're paying for to save an hour's extra travel to avoid ruining it for the Elite with suitcases...oh the horror, having to share it with the great unwashed. Just as is happening already to save the sorry ass of UPX by charging only GO fares between Union and Weston.

So someone explain how those same fares would be taking away the seats of flyers if they come the other direction from the Airport instead of taking the seats of other routes not UPX by being forced to go around the airport?

As to the Island Airport and subsidy:
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2015/09/16/toronto-island-airport-expansion-could-top-1-billion-report/

That's for a proposed expansion shot down by the City. And City Parks does rent 40 acres of land to the airport for a $1 a year. That doesn't seem to inconvenience GO travellers who should be transferring through Pearson however for a seat they're subsidizing at $20 a shot for someone else's use, but not theirs.
but it will take years to solider forward and fulfil integration.
I think you're right, or at least sense that. Many of us do. But Ford...well...his *tutors*...would be wise to offer the low-hanging fruit to the 905ers: Open up the UPX routing for Mr and Ms 905er to get downtown and back again in a seamless single transfer to a commuter train using the UPX alignment, with a few tweaks, all very affordable because of the use of *existing* infrastructure, save for the need to order more three-car trainsets, and they almost inevitably won't be more of the Sharyos. That too could be part of a DBFOM.

Ford's sycophants could double their clout while clouting Mr and Ms 905 by privatizing (fully, not partially) what they still hold of Ontario Hydro on the understanding that the DBFOM be out out to tender to electrify that part of the corridor, own the electrification infrastructure (with eventual reversion back to the Province) finance it, operate at least the current supply and maintain it. And Abracadabra, Ontario is fiscally ahead. (Of course, when the Libs do this, it's heinous, but when the Cons do it, it's brilliant).

The Cons are going to be cutting big time. The schools are already taking one of the first hits, transit is next...but not before Ford is going to tell you how wonderful it is to get shafted.

Outsourcing the project *is* one of the only ways to move this forward, that's the good news, the bad is that "that's all you get".

Of course, subsidizing highways doesn't count. That liberates The People to drive themselves wild. Of course, this all fits with 'draining the swamp' of Metrolinx "elites" (not just any, but Lib Elites!) and turning over swathes of Metrolinx to private operators.

In Ford's favour is that initially, it couldn't be run much worse. Down the line, however, it could never be what was promised.

"Liberating" the UPX line to a savvy operator might be a very obvious first move, justified or not.

While we ain't Europe, but visit most US cities (other than New York City or Chicago) -- Especially Mississauga sized cities -- and the situation is much more dismal.
I've got to disagree with that. The US is not great at running subways, for a variety of reasons, but of course, their funding model was radically different than Toronto's. But the difference isn't "US v Toronto"...it's *North Am cities that have embraced LRT* (and LRT in tunnel) where many US and Cdn cities are far ahead.

But alas, Dougie doesn't like LRTs (I won't even begin to list his rant references). He likes Subways, Subways, Subways.

And to those holding out hope that he means "Metros, LRTs, RERs and Ladas in tunnels" for "subways"...there's still absolutely no indication he does. I mean, give the man a break (brake?): He hasn't got that far in the Zeus book yet. How's he possibly able to remember all those 'Acronyms'...which never should have been allowed to immigrate illegally.
 
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Can you be more specific about how "the taxpayer" is subsidising the Island Airport? The 2016 PortsToronto Annual Report does not publish a full set of accounts.

My absolute apologies. I thought the lineage would be such that the reference of "taxpayers" would be assigned to the point under discussion: Subsidizing UPX.

Perhaps you're not familiar with it? (And note how Metrolinx is attempting *still* to increase ridership numbers to this day. Not quite your expressed fear, is it?

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...idership-up-but-still-heavily-subsidized.html

More detail is available online if one feels the point isn't made above.

So let's see now, how to get the cost ratio down: How about getting more people to ride it? Normal working folks, or on their way home, or even better yet, from just outside the northwest corner of Toronto, and wanting to transfer through on a line they're paying for save an hour's extra travel having to avoid ruining it for the Elite...oh the horror, having to share it with the great unwashed. Just as is happening already to save the sorry ass of UPX by charging only GO fares between Union and Weston.

So someone explain how those same fares would be taking away the seats of flyers if they come the other direction from the Airport instead of taking the seats of other routes by being forced to go around the airport?

I had no idea UPX had a stop on Toronto Island until now. Thanks for pointing that out.


Again, that's unrelated to any kind of operating subsidy since that's a potential capital cost to be borne by PortsToronto in the unlikely event of expansion to allow jets, paid for by landing fees of air travellers.

That's for a proposed expansion shot down by the City. And City Parks does rent 40 acres of land to the airport for a $1 a year. That doesn't seem to inconvenience GO travellers who should be transferring through Pearson however for a seat they're subsidizing at $20 a shot for someone else's use, but not theirs.
I think you're right, or at least sense that. Many of us do. But Ford...well...his *tutors*...would be wise to offer the low-hanging fruit to the 905ers: Open up the UPX routing for Mr and Ms 905er to get downtown and back again in a seamless single transfer to a commuter train using the UPX alignment, with a few tweaks, all very affordable because of the use of *existing* infrastructure, save for the need to order more three-car trainsets, and they almost inevitably won't be more of the Sharyos.

You seem to still be conflating two very different airports.
 
I had no idea UPX had a stop on Toronto Island until now. Thanks for pointing that out.
Again, that's unrelated to any kind of operating subsidy since that's a potential capital cost to be borne by PortsToronto in the unlikely event of expansion to allow jets, paid for by landing fees of air travellers.
You seem to still be conflating two very different airports.
Perhaps if you read back the references might make sense? Perhaps not...
Good news if you're the Island Airport I suppose.
I think you have an issue with Dowling, not me. Thank you for pointing that out to him.

In case it's a bit too abstract, my point is on the using of GO buses to be allowed to transfer incoming/outgoing passengers to UPX at or near Pearson Airport. Details were supplied previously.

Details discussed very well in this thread, starting with a series here:
#1017

And here:
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/toronto-pearson-transit-hub-m-s-gtaa.21541/
 
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