News   Apr 26, 2024
 2.3K     4 
News   Apr 26, 2024
 542     0 
News   Apr 26, 2024
 1.1K     1 

GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

I know a lot in Kitchener will be happy with regular (not even hourly) passenger GO bus service along Highway 6 to tie in Waterloo/Wellington into the frequent Lakeshore Line. In the 10 years it's going to take to fix the bottlenecks on the Kitchener line, there could easily be DMU service on the parts of the line GO owns and has little conflict. Bramalea-Union is the obvious one, but Kitchener-Guelph is a pair that is under-served where no real transit connection exists (apart from Greyhound).

There are quick wins that GO is ignoring due to its legacy Toronto-Centric hub and spoke transit model. They are beginning to move in a different direction and expanding their scope, but the pace of that change is frustrating for many.
 
Fyi........500 people an hour in off peak would mean trains that are roughly, what, 35% full........so nearly 2x what LS was achieving when service was expanded to half hourly........ when did the standard change?
 
Fyi........500 people an hour in off peak would mean trains that are roughly, what, 35% full........so nearly 2x what LS was achieving when service was expanded to half hourly........ when did the standard change?

Is there a published source for that stat? I've never seen GO release stats about individual lines. I would like to see them.
 
35% full does not imply only 35% cost recovery. Are we talking 6-car trains, or 12? Weekend and midday service on LS was only 2-4 single level cars originally - both loco hauled and EMU.

- Paul
 
It would be really nice if Metrolinx got a fleet of low-floor DMU's instead of some of those bilevels from Bombardier that could be moved around as temporary reverse-peak, midday and weekend services as they ramp up an area for electrification.

Run them currently from Mount Pleasant - Union - Unionville. Electrify that first to satisfy "Smarttrack". Then replace with EMU's and move the DMU's to Aurora - Union - Langstaff. Once Barrie Line is electrified and third track is in on Milton line replace with EMU's on the Barrie Line and move the DMU's to run from Streetsville GO on the Milton Line and Langstaff GO on the Richmond Hill Line indefinitely...as not in the plans to electrify for some time to come.
 
DMU's would be great, but in the interest of expediency, three-car bilevel trains would suffice for now.

Perhaps someone would have data on the relative costs of DMU versus 3-car bilevel trains. I don't believe the conventional trains would be prohibitive, for a few years anyways. Certainly the trains GO has will generate more revenue and ridership than the ones it doesn't have yet.

- Paul
 
What kind of backlash will Metrolinx get if they put hour service on lines where there is no service now and 3 years later they kill it due to poor ridership???
For the Western Corridor, I don't think that will be the case. Look at the radical change in ridership on UPX once the fares became standard GO ones from Weston to Union. And on weekends!

The trick to having it make sense is as Paul states:
DMU's would be great, but in the interest of expediency, three-car bilevel trains would suffice for now.
This is akin to my stance of "making do with what you have" in terms of the Sharyos. Even as they age (it will be the propulsive mechanics, not the trucks or coach body itself) turn them into loco-hauled coaches, electric locos come the time, but diesel until such time, and do, or at least consider as Paul states for the Bramalea run: Three coach trains. This is how The Coaster in San Diego was run when I was there. As demand grew, they added coaches.

Often the demand is there, it takes a while for it to establish as rail customer base. View the alternative: What's better for all concerned? Highway traffic or public transit? That's not a 'socialist' stance on my part, some very right of centre jurisdictions in the US look at it exactly that way. It saves money in the long run. Considerable amounts. And it makes for more livable cities.

On utilizing existing stock instead of DMUs, if *second hand suitable DMUs* can be found, great, but to order them new, and in smaller quantities is to repeat the huge mistake of the orphan Sharyos. If something can be leased until electrification, also great (within reason). But otherwise, use what's on-hand, and quite possibly older loco and coach stock, since the performance demand will be much less than on peak stock, and it's a good way of using, say, older F59s so that when they are worn out, they're completely retired, rather than putting wear on newer stock. Remember, they'll only be pulling three car trains for now, and in doing so, will also accelerate faster.

Whether there's enough spare stock to make-up a small fleet of 'compacts' is a good question.

Edit to Add: If, for example, it takes three consists of three coaches to do Bramalea on a 15 min schedule, the real challenge won't be finding the locos or coaches, it will be satisfying the need for an 'access' coach and driving cab for each one. Whether there's enough of the older cab coaches left is a good question? And would it be best to do the mid-day Mt Pleasant run also with 3 car consists? I think so. Even the six-car ones are only running about half full.

So how would the runs be meshed? Every quarter or half hour to Bramalea, every hour to Mt Pleasant such that it renders 7 1/2 minute service south of Weston including UPX? Or perhaps express from Malton to Union? Or Area's original premise: Change at Weston for a Bramalea shuttle, while Mt. Pleasant continues to run as is?

The Corridor is there, the demand is there, and the need to mesh local bus service is there. The sooner implemented, the sooner the rider numbers will start to climb.
 
Last edited:
Is there a published source for that stat? I've never seen GO release stats about individual lines. I would like to see them.
here is an article from when they expanded from hourly to half hourly saying that the average off peak train prior to the expansion (ie with the hourly service) was carrying 350 passengers.

So I guess the question is ....why now does a line need 500 passengers an hour to justify hourly service when in 2013 Lakeshore (after many, many, years of hourly service being in place) with 350 riders per hour was seen as justifying an increase to half hourly....when did that needle move?

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ry_30_minutes_all_day_on_lakeshore_lines.html
 
So I guess the question is ....why now does a line need 500 passengers an hour to justify hourly service when in 2013 Lakeshore (after many, many, years of hourly service being in place) with 350 riders per hour was seen as justifying an increase to half hourly....when did that needle move?

UPX exploded GOs operating budget. In 2015 they were running nearly a 50% operating subsidy. While this is being fixed (both by reigning in costs and growing ridership) I imagine it's still a concern that they might launch service and completely miss expectations.

All speculation of course but I can see how the bean counters at MTO might be less interested in experiments when sending money to Metrolinx.
 
UPX exploded GOs operating budget. In 2015 they were running nearly a 50% operating subsidy. While this is being fixed (both by reigning in costs and growing ridership) I imagine it's still a concern that they might launch service and completely miss expectations.

All speculation of course but I can see how the bean counters at MTO might be less interested in experiments when sending money to Metrolinx.
in this case though, those "experiments" are essentially just ML fulfilling promises made by the government of the day anyway....but I am more interested in hearing how some people who (as far as I recall) were all in favour of expanding Lakeshore to 1/2 hour when they had the ridership then but are comfortable today saying no line should get (deserves) hourly service unless there is 500 riders per hour. The logic seems a bit in-congruent
 
in this case though, those "experiments" are essentially just ML fulfilling promises made by the government of the day anyway....but I am more interested in hearing how some people who (as far as I recall) were all in favour of expanding Lakeshore to 1/2 hour when they had the ridership then but are comfortable today saying no line should get (deserves) hourly service unless there is 500 riders per hour. The logic seems a bit in-congruent

That's just Drum. I'm not saying he's wrong, he could very well be right, I don't know enough to say. But, I think time has affected his outlook on these matters, in general he comes off very pessimistic about most proposed transit proposals.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must look at things as business and they all have different operating cost, hour rate and profit. If you don't make a profit yearly to the point you close the doors even if you have investors. Depending on the field, it could be a rollercoster for profit and lost from year to year or decade to decade, but at some point you can be in the red for so long, that you can't recovery from it.

Transit is not a profit making field, but the bottom line play a huge part in the quality of service and fare.

The Province covers 15% of Metrolinx lost as a whole, not per line. Since Metrolinx doesn't show the cost ratio for any lines, it hard to say what they are as a guess.

Metrolinx pays a running right on CN & CP tracks and that has to be added on top of normal cost using Metrolinx tracks.

Metrolinx will ask for X dollars at budget time with the province and depending what is going on at the time, they may get it or get cut. Based on the budget approved, Metrolinx looks at it to see if they can do what they want or what do we not proceed with. If its cuts, service will be the last thing to see increase unless force by the province.

As I stated before, operating cost is the same as a 4 or 12 car train. You gain very little going to DMU unless its running as a one crew, then not that much.

Metrolinx has stated public that when the Lakeshore went to 30 minute service, ridership jump 29% with LSW seeing 42% increase vs LSE at 19%. Since I use LSW, the ridership is there as new ridership to justify even going to 20 minutes, but the east will not see it.

Do the math for any line to determined if a train can run, how often and what is your set break point for fare is to get 50% cost ratio on start up and up to 80% within 3-5 years.

You need to know what is the total runtime for a round trip with 15 minutes layover at each. You then divide that time by the headway you want to see how many trains will be needed to operate the headway. If you have any point decimal for x number of trains, you will have to either increase your headway, add more layover time or another train that will reduce your headway.

If we look at $1,200 per hour based on 4 hours, you multiply it by the number of trains on line as well the total operating hours. This will give the total operating cost for X line. Now, take that break point fore fares and divided it into total operating cost and that is the number of riders you will need to start at 50% and then cost ratio the number that will be needed to get to for 80% cost ratio.

One can pull out x riders to say a train can run 30-60 minutes, but until you do the math, its a number and mean nothing.

Going back to the LSW with 30 minute service, it has 9 stations that requires at least 55 riders per station to get 500 an hour and you be lucky to see that number for 4 of then, let alone 25. They are offset by 4 stations that will see more than 55 riders. This is off peak
 
Last edited:
Just because some want 15-60 minute service, does the ridership justify it??

Unless you are moving about 500 riders an hour, rail service is useless and better off with buses regardless the longer travel time.

People talk about getting hourly service into Hamilton, but 10-25 riders doesn't support it and that how many were on my 2 buses on Friday.

With the current rolling stock, going to be some time before you see 30-15 minute service to Mount Pleasant

Fyi........500 people an hour in off peak would mean trains that are roughly, what, 35% full........so nearly 2x what LS was achieving when service was expanded to half hourly........ when did the standard change?
here is an article from when they expanded from hourly to half hourly saying that the average off peak train prior to the expansion (ie with the hourly service) was carrying 350 passengers.

So I guess the question is ....why now does a line need 500 passengers an hour to justify hourly service when in 2013 Lakeshore (after many, many, years of hourly service being in place) with 350 riders per hour was seen as justifying an increase to half hourly....when did that needle move?

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ry_30_minutes_all_day_on_lakeshore_lines.html


in this case though, those "experiments" are essentially just ML fulfilling promises made by the government of the day anyway....but I am more interested in hearing how some people who (as far as I recall) were all in favour of expanding Lakeshore to 1/2 hour when they had the ridership then but are comfortable today saying no line should get (deserves) hourly service unless there is 500 riders per hour. The logic seems a bit in-congruent
500 is a random number drum came up with. Not sure of what the hangup is here.


For the Western Corridor, I don't think that will be the case. Look at the radical change in ridership on UPX once the fares became standard GO ones from Weston to Union. And on weekends!

The trick to having it make sense is as Paul states:

This is akin to my stance of "making do with what you have" in terms of the Sharyos. Even as they age (it will be the propulsive mechanics, not the trucks or coach body itself) turn them into loco-hauled coaches, electric locos come the time, but diesel until such time, and do, or at least consider as Paul states for the Bramalea run: Three coach trains. This is how The Coaster in San Diego was run when I was there. As demand grew, they added coaches.

Often the demand is there, it takes a while for it to establish as rail customer base. View the alternative: What's better for all concerned? Highway traffic or public transit? That's not a 'socialist' stance on my part, some very right of centre jurisdictions in the US look at it exactly that way. It saves money in the long run. Considerable amounts. And it makes for more livable cities.

On utilizing existing stock instead of DMUs, if *second hand suitable DMUs* can be found, great, but to order them new, and in smaller quantities is to repeat the huge mistake of the orphan Sharyos. If something can be leased until electrification, also great (within reason). But otherwise, use what's on-hand, and quite possibly older loco and coach stock, since the performance demand will be much less than on peak stock, and it's a good way of using, say, older F59s so that when they are worn out, they're completely retired, rather than putting wear on newer stock. Remember, they'll only be pulling three car trains for now, and in doing so, will also accelerate faster.

Whether there's enough spare stock to make-up a small fleet of 'compacts' is a good question.

Edit to Add: If, for example, it takes three consists of three coaches to do Bramalea on a 15 min schedule, the real challenge won't be finding the locos or coaches, it will be satisfying the need for an 'access' coach and driving cab for each one. Whether there's enough of the older cab coaches left is a good question? And would it be best to do the mid-day Mt Pleasant run also with 3 car consists? I think so. Even the six-car ones are only running about half full.

So how would the runs be meshed? Every quarter or half hour to Bramalea, every hour to Mt Pleasant such that it renders 7 1/2 minute service south of Weston including UPX? Or perhaps express from Malton to Union? Or Area's original premise: Change at Weston for a Bramalea shuttle, while Mt. Pleasant continues to run as is?

The Corridor is there, the demand is there, and the need to mesh local bus service is there. The sooner implemented, the sooner the rider numbers will start to climb.

Agreed, again. The rollout was wrong and it was not advertised. Compare that to 30 min on lakeshore.

DMU's would be great, but in the interest of expediency, three-car bilevel trains would suffice for now.

Perhaps someone would have data on the relative costs of DMU versus 3-car bilevel trains. I don't believe the conventional trains would be prohibitive, for a few years anyways. Certainly the trains GO has will generate more revenue and ridership than the ones it doesn't have yet.

- Paul
3 cars? I would want the people not to be cooped up on off peak hours.
UPX exploded GOs operating budget. In 2015 they were running nearly a 50% operating subsidy. While this is being fixed (both by reigning in costs and growing ridership) I imagine it's still a concern that they might launch service and completely miss expectations.

All speculation of course but I can see how the bean counters at MTO might be less interested in experiments when sending money to Metrolinx.

This was supposed to be a public service, not a for profit enterprise. People pay taxes, at least give them something for it.
 
in this case though, those "experiments" are essentially just ML fulfilling promises made by the government of the day anyway.

I realize that. I just get the impression (the investigation into UPX mostly) that MTO and Minister of Transportation blames Metrolinx staff execution for the budget explosion rather than the concepts themselves.

From an outsiders view, Metrolinx as an organization is either very secretive or incompetent; the numerous projects that get started and delayed/retendered makes me lean toward the latter (USRC signalling, Union Train shed, Exhibition station, Presto's massively lengthened development program, etc.)
 

Back
Top