News   Nov 25, 2024
 395     0 
News   Nov 25, 2024
 634     0 
News   Nov 25, 2024
 383     0 

GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

Lots of funny grumbles from parade atendees waiting for GO Trains home today.
"They should have doubled service for the rush hour!"
Because GO apparently has 200 spare coaches sitting around unused at 5:00 p.m. on a weekday. It's a good reminder how out of touch most people are with how things actually work and how impossible it is to ramp up service more than a few runs, nevermind all the other complications of track space and allotments at Union.

I completely agree w/the above................though, I think, in fairness, it should be said that the original schedule for this event had it ending a couple of hours sooner. The inability to execute the parade on time certainly made matters worse.

There would have been some slack in the midday schedules (ramp up rush hour service levels 2 hours early) which would have provided a modest amount of relief.

Though I doubt the City or its transit agencies contemplated 2,000,000 attendees in any of their plans, perhaps 1/2 that, and that is reflected in a somewhat challenged outcome in terms of schedule and service.

Attendees, however, should be fully aware of the above; and go get a drink in a nice establishment west of Spadina or east of Jarvis and come back later!
 
Currently there are 3 morning trains on Saturdays and Sundays from Allandale, at about 9, 10, and 11 AM. This adds a 4:20 PM and 8:40 PM train.

Northbound from Union there's currently trains at about 5 pm, 10 pm, and 11 pm. This adds an 11:40 AM train, and adjusts the later two trains (and adding one) to 9:40 pm, 10:40 pm, and 11:40 pm.

I'd have thought extending the 7:20 pm but perhaps not the 10:40 pm would have been better - but overall it's a great improvement for weekend service north of Aurora. There's still 7 northbound and 8 southbound trains on Saturdays and Sundays that terminate/start in Aurora. (there's no more trains total, they extended two existing runs from Aurora to Barrie and tweaked the schedule).

Are the late-night "improvements" on LSW the first we're seeing of the promised conversion of deadheads to revenue service? I know there were some super-express services introduced when mid-day service was increased on LSE and LSW.

The Barrie line changes appear to introduce additional deadheads.

Currently, there's just one: The 5pm NB trip continues past Aurora, so I understand that a 2nd trainset deadheads to Aurora to perform the SB trip at 6:11pm.

Now, I'm guessing there are an additional four:

#2: Since the noon departure NB is now leaving at 11:40am and continuing to Barrie, I'm guessing they will deadhead a train behind it to perform the 1pm SB trip from Aurora.

#3: Similarly, the now-9:30pm train continues to Barrie, so another train needs to come in to go SB at 10:41pm.

#4: The 4:20pm train SB from Barrie (arr Aurora 5:11pm) will also mean the 4pm NB trip (arr Aurora 4:51pm) will need to deadhead away.

#5: Similarly, the 8:40pm SB from Barrie (arr Aurora 9:31pm) means the 8:20pm NB (arr Aurora 9:11pm) needs to deadhead away as well.

What is preventing a more wholesale approach to converting deadheads to revenue service? Would be great to see an express Aurora<-->Union perhaps with stops at Downsview Park (for network connectivity) and Rutherford or Maple.

I wonder if Deadhead #5 will move to a siding, and then return to Aurora as Deadhead #3. Same with #4 returning to Aurora to perform the now-6:21pm trip.

It's a shame better use can't be made of the trains (and 1.5 platforms) at Bradford.
 
The report says running to Cambridge through Guelph "has a higher degree of constructability and deliverability compared to the Milton Go line extension,", Likely true, but speed doesn't seem to be a factor. In the April 1971 timetable, Milton to Cambridge (Galt) was 29 minutes and Union to Milton was 36 minutes, making Union to Cambridge 65 minutes (compare to the current 60 or so minutes from Union to Milton).

No reason (other than CP Rail) that GO couldn't extend the current Milton GO Train to Cambridge in about 30 minutes ... making Toronto to Galt about 90 minutes.

Meanwhile the best Toronto to Guelph GO Train time (the express) is 84 minutes. How long will Guelph to Cambridge take? Back in 1950 the Guelph to Hamilton train, used to take 33 minutes to Hespler, 45 minutes to Galt, and 60 minutes to Galt (and 125 minutes to the CN station in Hamilton via Dundas).

Meanwhile this new Region of Waterloo report says only 20 minutes from Guelph to Cambridge (Hespeler)? Even the long-term they don't get it down to less than 88 minutes from Toronto to Hespeler - compared to 65 minutes in 1971 via Milton!

Seems odd that they think they'd be thousands of riders for this, but they cancelled the direct Cambridge to Milton bus that connects to the existing GO train because of low ridership.
 
No reason (other than CP Rail) that GO couldn't extend the current Milton GO Train to Cambridge in about 30 minutes ... making Toronto to Galt about 90 minutes.

I don’t think CP is the enemy here. The obstacle is the amount of capital investment that’s needed to keep freight fluid. There is virtually no place to park a 10,000 foot freight train in that zone so that GO can blast through. It is not reasonable to expect CP to impose a curfew mornings and evenings all the way from Cambridge to Lambton to expedite GO service Milton-Cambridge. Remove CP’s ability to use both tracks west of Milton for meets and it really messes up their operation.

We won’t see express GO trains overtaking Milton local trains. It is possbible to extend a couple of the Milton trains to Cambridge, and that might allow GO to add trains at peak, by using Cambridge as a layover point.... the Milton layover yard is full. But the capital required to add track on CP for only a couple of trains probably is a non-starter under ML’s Business Case formula.

Meanwhile the best Toronto to Guelph GO Train time (the express) is 84 minutes. How long will Guelph to Cambridge take? Back in 1950 the Guelph to Hamilton train, used to take 33 minutes to Hespler, 45 minutes to Galt, and 60 minutes to Galt (and 125 minutes to the CN station in Hamilton via Dundas).

Meanwhile this new Region of Waterloo report says only 20 minutes from Guelph to Cambridge (Hespeler)? Even the long-term they don't get it down to less than 88 minutes from Toronto to Hespeler - compared to 65 minutes in 1971 via Milton.

That Galt to Toronto RDC has a special place in my adolescence. Let’s just say that the devil-may-care culture that let that train run as it did isn’t around any more.
The Hespeler-Guelph line was never engineered for more than turn of the last century speeds. I bet it could be upgraded quite nicely. If ML has an agreement with CN for the Halton line, and once the fourth track is in place east of Bramalea, and once the Guelph-Silver segment is upgraded, it’s quite feasible for ML to interleave peak trains from Cambridge to Guelph with the Kitchener peak trains, and if they run express east of Bramalea the overall timing might be more favourable. So it’s not as absurd a proposition as one might think.

But yeah, I’d love to ride that Budd car through Milton one more time ;-)

- Paul
 
I don’t think CP is the enemy here. The obstacle is the amount of capital investment that’s needed to keep freight fluid. There is virtually no place to park a 10,000 foot freight train in that zone so that GO can blast through. It is not reasonable to expect CP to impose a curfew mornings and evenings all the way from Cambridge to Lambton to expedite GO service Milton-Cambridge. Remove CP’s ability to use both tracks west of Milton for meets and it really messes up their operation.

To the contrary, I think that they are. I've got no reason to believe that their positions on expanding service on the Milton corridor have changed whatsoever in the past 20 years or so - which is why there is a lot more trains but running on virtually the exact same timetable and in the exact same window. There has been virtually no addition to the service on the corridor in terms of alternate schedule timings.

Yes, you are right in that it is unreasonable to ask of them to institute a curfew, but in GO's defense I don't think that they've ever asked that of CP. Any extension to Cambridge, at least internally at GO, had always envisioned extending the double track out to Galt from Campbellville, which would be a huge net benefit to CP.

We won’t see express GO trains overtaking Milton local trains. It is possbible to extend a couple of the Milton trains to Cambridge, and that might allow GO to add trains at peak, by using Cambridge as a layover point.... the Milton layover yard is full.

Milton Layover is currently full, but the property is big enough to allow for the storage of another 4 or 6 trains. And there are two wayside locations at Milton Station itself.

Richmond Hill has always been odd to me, surely 1--3 trips in on weekend mornings and out in the evenings would be well used.

Richmond Hill has always been a bit of a peculiar situation. Moreso than the other lines, the passenger flows have always been extremely commuter oriented. That said, there's an extremely good chance that it will be the next line to get some limited mid-day service - and it almost happened last April. GO is desperately trying to figure out a way to get buses off of the DVP, and one of the ideas being floated is to run a limited mid-day service as far as Old Cummer. Of course, there aren't any facilities for buses there.....

Dan
 
There is some low hanging fruit/quick wins when it comes to the RH line that would make the line much more useful.

Oriole should be more closely integrated with the massive development ongoing at the Canadian Tire/Ikea lands to ensure some walk-ins.

Old Cummer parking should be expanded to absorb the loss of parking at Oriole. OC should also be better integrated with the busy Finch bus (along with fare integration - same for Oriole and Line 4).

Langstaff has a lot of TOD potential - again, to ensure walk-ins for midday service plus fare integration with Viva.

Bringing in midday service without these other pieces will be next to useless because the parking lots are packed after 0830. As things stand right now, midday ridership would be nearly non-existent.
 
Yes, you are right in that it is unreasonable to ask of them to institute a curfew, but in GO's defense I don't think that they've ever asked that of CP. Any extension to Cambridge, at least internally at GO, had always envisioned extending the double track out to Galt from Campbellville, which would be a huge net benefit to CP.

Well, we are totally in agreement that if GO would spring for more track, CP's position might be a lot different. It comes back to the cost of that investment between Milton and Galt versus the number of riders - most of whom already get on at Milton, so the incremental revenue is pretty slim.

But I think we may overestimate CP's value gained if they saw that double track put in place. Railroading is all about "stand on your head because we aren't going to spend the capital to give you shoes" - CP makes do with what it has. They recently installed the CTC at Guelph Jct...perhaps they were hoping GO would act on Galt and they could get GO to pay, but in the end they did as much as they really needed and they live with any deficiencies in the result. Not really any different than the Bala Sub (which does not have 2-way service) or the Halton (which only got 2-way when GO paid for a third track).

There was a short lived midday service to Erindale, by the way. The Mississauga-Erindale triple track is no longer viable as a passing track, due to longer trains that will now block crossings. The bigger point is, CP needs the second track outside of rush hour - for maintenance, and for operations and local service. That's why the service envelope is peak only, it limits GO to one track, which has been the deal all along. Even running equipment turnbacks at peak - which is a lot more cost effective than addding more layover capacity and buying more trains - would take away the one track that CP has for its use. Which is why that ain't gonna happen.

An old timer who was in the room tells me that when GO first negotiated for the Milton service, CP's list of needed modifications to the line was substantial. GO did a very detailed study which (I am told) demonstrated that they could run the intended service on the line pretty much as it stood, ie with the old unidirectional mbs signalling and jointed rail. It was the top brass at GO and the Province who decided that it wasn't smart to push CP to the wall on that, partly as they foresaw further expansion and partly because they wanted a relationship where they could say, "Look, we did all this for you, now we need you to...." So the study was never presented to CP, and CP got the bidirectional CTC, and GO paid for ribbon rail on one of the two main tracks, and GO helped with other modifications particularly between Lambton and Dixie. (and to Parkdale)

That proved to be a wise move .... it was hard enough to add the triple track from Royal York to Dixie in the 1980's, can you imagine the NIMBY reaction if that were proposed today? And CP gained enough capacity that GO's incremental requests over the years have mostly been accepted. Retired RTC's and Chief Dispatchers have told me that for a decade or two, they went to elaborate lengths to keep a shine on that third track, which really wasn't needed in the beginning. For a time, the third track was the highest-quality, highest-speed, CTC equipped freight car siding on the system. But now it is very much in use. And, really, CP has run a pretty reliable and committed operation - they just say no if their own interests are impacted. CP is not a charity.

- Paul
 
Last edited:
Anyone know what is going on with Confederation GO? Is it still on track for opening by the end of the year? Any word on the service pattern planned for it when it does open?
 

Back
Top